If God doesn't exist, how do you know that truth exists? Watch

xylas
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Please answer the question above, I'm hoping for a rational discussion on this topic
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Retired_Messiah
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I'm sorry what? I have no idea how that even works. If God didn't exist and we proved that, god not existing would be... the truth... so... what?

The truth is just "what is correct" in effect so once you verify something is correct, it is true, therefore the truth.
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xylas
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(Original post by Retired_Messiah)
I'm sorry what? I have no idea how that even works. If God didn't exist and we proved that, god not existing would be... the truth... so... what?

The truth is just "what is correct" in effect so once you verify something is correct, it is true, therefore the truth.
Yeah but how do you know for definite what is "correct"? How do you know for definite God doesn't exist
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ThePricklyOne
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Truth exists without requiring God to also exist.

The relationship between the 2 is not mandatory or exclusive.
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Retired_Messiah
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(Original post by xylas)
Yeah but how do you know for definite what is "correct"? How do you know for definite God doesn't exist
Well we don't. But here's something, I know for a fact that my celebrity (I say celebrity but she's really quite B-list) crush is Katherine McNamara. This is therefore the truth. It would still be the truth regardless of what state God's in.

If we're going to go meta and say "how can we trust our perception what if the world doesn't exist and this is a dream omg" then we can still say "it is true that I don't actually know anything for certain about the world at all"
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xylas
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(Original post by ThePricklyOne)
Truth exists without requiring God to also exist.

The relationship between the 2 is not mandatory or exclusive.
how do you know that truth exists?


(Original post by Retired_Messiah)
Well we don't. But here's something, I know for a fact that my celebrity (I say celebrity but she's really quite B-list) crush is Katherine McNamara. This is therefore the truth. It would still be the truth regardless of what state God's in...
It's a fact that you say "my celebrity crush is..." but you have not proven this statement to be true in and of itself. Unless you say it's true because you say it is.

fact: noun
a thing that is known or proved to be true.
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Retired_Messiah
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(Original post by xylas)
It's a fact that you say "my celebrity crush is..." but you have not proven this statement to be true in and of itself. Unless you say it's true because you say it is.

fact: noun
a thing that is known or proved to be true.
Mmm theoretically I suppose it is impossible to prove an attraction to somebody to anybody other than yourself. I myself know it to be true because it's me doing the whole being attracted thing, but for anybody else there can never be 100% certainty that the other person isn't lying I guess. At the same time tho have u see her because oooohhh myyyy gosh

The second part of my post is still true tho (ha). Truth is basically just a fact that is verified. If you feel you can't verify anything about the physical world, it then becomes true that you can't verify anything. So truth exists. It's an a priori analytic truth that it does, I think (have I used my fancy philosophy words right?)
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ThePricklyOne
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(Original post by xylas)
how do you know that truth exists?
Truth is a defined value. If it is defined as 'green', it can't be 'red'.

However, truth is a human defined value, it holds true until it is redefined.

A truth exists today. Can't say if it will exist tomorrow.
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Bulletzone
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I get what the OP is trying to get at.

How can Truth exist with Evil?
Can there be truth without Evil?
Who defines what is right and wrong? It isn't just humans, all human understanding must have originated from somewhere.
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xylas
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(Original post by ThePricklyOne)
Truth is a defined value. If it is defined as 'green', it can't be 'red'.

However, truth is a human defined value, it holds true until it is redefined.

A truth exists today. Can't say if it will exist tomorrow.
So do humans define what truth is?


(Original post by Bulletzone)
I get what the OP is trying to get at.

How can Truth exist with Evil?
Can there be truth without Evil?
Who defines what is right and wrong? It isn't just humans, all human understanding must have originated from somewhere.
Please explain or expand your own view
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ThePricklyOne
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(Original post by Bulletzone)
I get what the OP is trying to get at.

How can Truth exist with Evil?
Can there be truth without Evil?
Who defines what is right and wrong? It isn't just humans, all human understanding must have originated from somewhere.
If that's what OP is getting at, then he's wrong.

We define good and evil and we can change our minds tomorrow.

All human understanding evolved from humans. All animal understanding evolved from animals. If this planet blows up, all this understanding will go up in smoke and will have to be evolved again.
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ThePricklyOne
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(Original post by xylas)
So do humans define what truth is?
So do animals, plants, single cell organisms but we only know about the human defined 'truths' (there is more than one truth) because humans are able to record it (in books, etc) and share it.
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0xFFFFail
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Evidence beyond reasonable doubt can be truth in my opinion.

Pure water boils at 100 degrees Celsius. This statement can be empirically verified and repeated by just about anyone, why not accept this as fact?
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smartguy32
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(Original post by 0xFFFFail)
Evidence beyond reasonable doubt can be truth in my opinion.

Pure water boils at 100 degrees Celsius. This statement can be empirically verified and repeated by just about anyone, why not accept this as fact?
That didn't happen when i was on mount Everest!
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Pressure is lower so it boils around 70 degrees!
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0xFFFFail
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(Original post by smartguy32)
That didn't happen when i was on mount Everest!
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Pressure is lower so it boils around 70 degrees!

completely forgot about atmospheric pressure!
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Bulletzone
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(Original post by xylas)
So do humans define what truth is?




Please explain or expand your own view

I'll do my best
-------------------------------------
Send yourself back in time.
The world has first began (doesn't matter how) and there are the first two people on the newly planet "earth".
How do they know what to do?
Knowledge is acquired by either the observation of something or through the teaching of a being who has knowledge right?
Well the question here is,
Where does the knowledge source from?
Remember when fire was first discovered? Through many animated classics we can all agree that sometime ago, something got struck by lightning and due to the curiosity of our earlier ancestors, it led them to test and observe that fire makes things cook.

The main question the thread creator is trying to ask is where did the first piece of knowledge come from? Hence why they are saying that God must have given the first humans on the earth the knowledge on what can be done; as once Adam and Eve took a bite from the Tree of knowledge, they learnt right from wrong which has been passed down from human to human.

To back up my point:
Here is an interesting Article, I shall copy the main bit to spare you from having to go to the link,

Dr. Karen Wynn runs the Baby Lab, and she and her team have been studying the minds and behaviors of babies for decades. About eight years ago they began running a series of studies on babies under 24 months to see how much these babies understand about good and bad behavior.The first test is the simplest. Show a baby an example of good behavior, and then an example of bad behavior, then let the baby decide what she likes.

They begin with a puppet show. In this show, a gray cat is seen trying to open a big plastic box. The cat tries repeatedly, but he just can't open the lid all the way. A bunny in a green T-shirt comes along and helps open the box. Then the scenario is repeated, but this time a bunny in an orange T-shirt comes along and slams the box shut before running away. The green bunny is nice and helpful. The orange bunny is mean and unhelpful.The baby is then presented with the two bunnies from the show. A staff member who doesn't know which bunny was mean and which bunny was nice will offer both bunnies at the same time to the baby. The baby's mother, who is usually present during the study, closes her eyes so as not to influence the baby in any way.Which bunny do the babies choose?

More than 80% of the babies in the study showed their preference for the good bunny, either by reaching for the good bunny or staring at it. And with 3-month-olds, that number goes higher, to 87%.So what does this tell us? Paul Bloom, author of "Just Babies: The Origins of Good and Evil" and a professor of psychology at Yale, says these studies show that even before babies can speak or walk, they judge good and bad in the actions of others because they are born with a rudimentary sense of justice.

Basically, What I am trying to say is:
I believe that I and everyone else was created by a God and through the sin of Adam and Eve they're actions have given us the ability to determine right from wrong.
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xylas
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(Original post by ThePricklyOne)
So do animals, plants, single cell organisms but we only know about the human defined 'truths' (there is more than one truth) because humans are able to record it (in books, etc) and share it.
If that's how you define truth then it does not exist independently which is what I mean by truth.


(Original post by 0xFFFFail)
Evidence beyond reasonable doubt can be truth in my opinion.

Pure water boils at 100 degrees Celsius. This statement can be empirically verified and repeated by just about anyone, why not accept this as fact?

(Original post by smartguy32)
That didn't happen when i was on mount Everest!
Oh snap!
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smartguy32
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(Original post by 0xFFFFail)
completely forgot about atmospheric pressure!
i think youre telling the truth and only by testing our ideas and trying to prove them wrong and failing can we get close to some kind of truth or understanding.
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Thats why we wont "ever" know the truth about God because we cannot prove that it doesn't exist nor provide evidence that it does. Kind of like Schrodingers God i suppose.
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0xFFFFail
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(Original post by smartguy32)
i think youre telling the truth and only by testing our ideas and trying to prove them wrong and failing can we get close to some kind of truth or understanding.
Spoiler:
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Thats why we wont "ever" know the truth about God because we cannot prove that it doesn't exist nor provide evidence that it does. Kind of like Schrodingers God i suppose.

I don't personally mind not having an absolute truth or fact due to the nature of science, I'm not going to lose sleep over this. It's better to live your life and do something productive with your time than to spend too long thinking about the concept of what is "truth".
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ThePricklyOne
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(Original post by xylas)
If that's how you define truth then it does not exist independently which is what I mean by truth.
Truth doesn't exist without people to define what it is and what is not. As societies change, people will redefine both truth and what it is/isn't.

The alternative is a truth which is defined by a group of people to be true for all time. Society will change but people won't be allowed to change. So we have to live like in the Stone age even though we are in the Modern age.
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