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If God doesn't exist, how do you know that truth exists? Watch

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    (Original post by Bulletzone)
    I'll do my best
    -------------------------------------
    The world has first began (doesn't matter how) and there are the first two people on the newly planet "earth".

    The main question the thread creator is trying to ask is where did the first piece of knowledge come from? Hence why they are saying that God must have given the first humans on the earth the knowledge on what can be done
    I read your whole response but this first sentence heavily assumes a biblical creation of mankind so does not give much insight. Also please don't try and paraphrase my OP, I do not claim anywhere that a God exists or gave humans any knowledge.

    But I appreciate your view. That baby puppet experiment doesn't prove we are born with an innate sense of justice in my opinion but was interesting nonetheless


    (Original post by ThePricklyOne)
    Truth doesn't exist without people to define what it is and what is not. As societies change, people will redefine both truth and what it is/isn't.

    The alternative is a truth which is defined by a group of people to be true for all time. Society will change but people won't be allowed to change. So we have to live like in the Stone age even though we are in the Modern age.
    This manmade version of truth does not appeal to me. For instance I am talking about fundamental laws in our universe that are there whether you define them or not.
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    (Original post by 0xFFFFail)
    It's better to live your life and do something productive with your time than to spend too long thinking about the concept of what is "truth".
    i agree! ( unless you find it fun to bicker about bs like me then go for it)

    Isn't everything in Philosophy about wasting time arguing about things with no definite answer? At least in science we gradually build on knowledge that we deem to be factual!
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    (Original post by xylas)
    I read your whole response but this first sentence heavily assumes a biblical creation of mankind so does not give much insight. Also please don't try and paraphrase my OP, I do not claim anywhere that a God exists or gave humans any knowledge.

    But I appreciate your view. That baby puppet experiment doesn't prove we are born with an innate sense of justice in my opinion but was interesting nonetheless
    I did find the study interesting as well.
    I'm that small rebellious percentage who has the girls screaming and crawling to get a glimpse of me. (Lol )
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      (Original post by xylas)
      Please answer the question above, I'm hoping for a rational discussion on this topic
      Nobody knows anything for certain, because whatever can be observed is in the mind of the observer, and not even that can be solidly and irrefutably verified. Every moment prior to now could be a fiction, and everything you've ecver experienced an illusion.

      We take all of existence on faith, including truth, love, and God.
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      Your question has an assumption in it, namely that truth can only come from God, thus this question is unanswerable.

      However I'll give it a go.

      In philosophy, to find out if something is 'true' or not, you go to the most fundamental level, try to find something that indisputably is. The beauty of philosophy is that it is self defining, self-evidencing.

      As Descartes famously said 'I think, therefore I am'. Descartes was grappling with question of the day, namely 'How can we prove that anything exists at all?'. He realised that for him to be thinking about his existence, there must be some mechanism for him to be thinking about his existence. He thinks, therefore he is. Truth is self evident.

      Descartes answered your question 400 years ago OP. /thread
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      (Original post by Tootles)
      Nobody knows anything for certain, because whatever can be observed is in the mind of the observer, and not even that can be solidly and irrefutably verified. Every moment prior to now could be a fiction, and everything you've ecver experienced an illusion.

      We take all of existence on faith, including truth, love, and God.
      But we know that we exist surely?
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      (Original post by smartguy32)
      i agree! ( unless you find it fun to bicker about bs like me then go for it)

      Isn't everything in Philosophy about wasting time arguing about things with no definite answer? At least in science we gradually build on knowledge that we deem to be factual!
      Nothing wrong with a bit of philosophical debate, just that it shouldn't get in the way of progress or society!
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      (Original post by xylas)
      This manmade version of truth does not appeal to me. For instance I am talking about fundamental laws in our universe that are there whether you define them or not.
      The only fundamental laws in the universe are the ones defined in Physics, not by me.

      The biblical version of the truth does not appeal to me. It is backward concept invented by backward people back in a more ignorant age. One that has been surpassed by better definitions.
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      (Original post by Tootles)
      Every moment prior to now could be a fiction, and everything you've ecver experienced an illusion.
      a follower of last thursdayism i assume?
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      If God doesn't exist, how do you know that truth exists?
      You need to define your terms, but it does seem that the two concepts are entirely unrelated.
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      (Original post by smartguy32)
      Isn't everything in Philosophy about wasting time arguing about things with no definite answer? At least in science we gradually build on knowledge that we deem to be factual!
      That's what I hate about Philosophy.

      I'm in with the science myself.
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      (Original post by RogerOxon)
      You need to define your terms, but it does seem that the two concepts are entirely unrelated.
      Yup, the 2 are unrelated.
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        (Original post by xylas)
        But we know that we exist surely?
        Do we?

        Can you prove to me, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you or I exist?


        (Original post by smartguy32)
        a follower of last thursdayism i assume?
        Haha, no. I'm a Christian. But Last-Thursdayism is a perfect way of making a philosophically very interesting point.
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        (Original post by Zephrom)
        Your question has an assumption in it, namely that truth can only come from God, thus this question is unanswerable.

        However I'll give it a go...
        No that is not an assumption, it is one of the possible answers to the question.

        I am familiar with Descartes but your argument seems to be that we can't know that truth exists we can only know self-evident truths?


        (Original post by ThePricklyOne)
        The only fundamental laws in the universe are the ones defined in Physics, not by me.

        The biblical version of the truth does not appeal to me. It is backward concept invented by backward people back in a more ignorant age. One that has been surpassed by better definitions.
        Okay so do you think these physical laws represent the truth? Or is it just a definition that serves a purpose whether true or not.



        (Original post by RogerOxon)
        You need to define your terms, but it does seem that the two concepts are entirely unrelated.
        Sure. What I mean by God is an entity of absolute power that is timeless and permanent.

        What I mean by truth is an exact representation of reality. Pure knowledge.


        (Original post by Tootles)
        Do we?

        Can you prove to me, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you or I exist
        Yes, we exist because of the indisputable fact we are questioning our own existence.
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          (Original post by xylas)
          Yes, we exist because of the indisputable fact we are questioning our own existence.
          Circular logic, which a child could come up with - not proof at all. You might as well have just said cogito ergo sum.

          Nice try though :congrats:
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          (Original post by Tootles)
          Circular logic, which a child could come up with - not proof at all. You might as well have just said cogito ergo sum.

          Nice try though
          Go on dispute the fact.
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          (Original post by xylas)
          Okay so do you think these physical laws represent the truth? Or is it just a definition that serves a purpose whether true or not.
          It's just a definition and a set of rules we can use until something better comes along.

          It will serve as the truth, as far as we're capable of knowing, at this time.

          It will be different tomorrow.
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          (Original post by Tootles)
          Circular logic, which a child could come up with - not proof at all. You might as well have just said cogito ergo sum.

          Nice try though :congrats:
          As Descartes famously said 'I think, therefore I am'. Descartes was grappling with question of the day, namely 'How can we prove that anything exists at all?'. He realised that for him to be thinking about his existence, there must be some mechanism for him to be thinking about his existence. He thinks, therefore he is.

          There is no circular logic present here because Descartes isn't really saying anything. He isn't making an assumption, he isn't claiming anything.

          He is simply stating in a beautiful, concise way that for him to be thinking, there must be a mechanism that allows him to think. The very existence of his thought is proof that there is something (even if it is just his thought alone) real.
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          (Original post by xylas)
          No that is not an assumption, it is one of the possible answers to the question.

          I am familiar with Descartes but your argument seems to be that we can't know that truth exists we can only know self-evident truths?
          OP is assuming that truth needs God, ergo 'If God doesn't exist, how do you know truth exists?'. This is an assumption because there is no link between truth and God.

          And yes you are correct. My argument (which is by the way the foundation for an entire school of thought within philosophy) is that we cannot 'know' anything, we can only know that we think that we know. Thus the only 'real' truth is we as thoughts if nothing else exist.
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          (Original post by Tootles)
          Circular logic, which a child could come up with - not proof at all. You might as well have just said cogito ergo sum.

          Nice try though :congrats:
          Circular logic is not truth.

          We exist (or not), regardless of whether we question own existence.

          The questioning of our existence is not an indisputable fact. Some of us just don't care and some of us think we'll just live and then kick the bucket (die), and there's nothing more to it.
         
         
         
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