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    (Original post by epage)
    Lmao I didn't say I use them now - I said I have used them, there's a difference, I used them occasionally when I was really young if I was out with just my dad. Didn't realise that would be so controversial? This is a weird conversation. I don't make a habit of using the mens toilet, to clarify.
    That's understandable then. I thought you meant that you sometimes use them now
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    Another suggestion to simplify potential issues and future complications in your life: Don't get sex change surgery?
    What the **** is wrong with you? If someone wants to get sex change surgery because they suffer from gender dysphoria then why shouldn't they? Repressing their sense of identity may be far more damaging and complicating.
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    (Original post by cherryred90s)
    Do swimming pools have gender neutral changing rooms?
    My local one does. We have a gender neutral one, male and female changing rooms.
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    (Original post by Chúpamela porfi)
    What the **** is wrong with you? If someone wants to get sex change surgery because they suffer from gender dysphoria then why shouldn't they? Repressing their sense of identity may be far more damaging and complicating.
    We live in a world where reality is independent of our thoughts. We can believe what we like of things. We can believe that we are space rockets. This belief doesn't change the reality that we are human. If we were to believe that every subjective opinion was true of reality then we would literally have no place for psychiatric medicine....nobody would be considered crazy. All our thoughts would be true ... A person who thinks that they were a space rocket would have to be treated like one and instead of receiving the medical help that they need would be shot out into space. this is lunacy!!!!!!! This is crazy!!!

    Reality is independent of our thoughts. Our thoughts have to objectively conform with reality to be accepted as truths....A woman who feels like a man does not become one irrespective of her thoughts and feelings. I can operate on her face and on her body to make her appear more like a man..i can have her breasts removed...and give her all the HRT in the wold and a fake prosthetic penis ....it would not change her reality. She would remain a woman no matter what I do...Her genes, her DNA define her reality not her thoughts.

    Your way of thinking is so illogical and so crazy it is scary.... what is wrong with you people? A man who thinks he's a woman, becomes a woman? lol
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    (Original post by Chúpamela porfi)
    What the **** is wrong with you? If someone wants to get sex change surgery because they suffer from gender dysphoria then why shouldn't they? Repressing their sense of identity may be far more damaging and complicating.
    Nobody's stopping them from getting sex change surgery, but they should just be warned about the myriad of issues and complications it can cause in later life. Anything from finding a relationship, having children or simply using the bathroom will become so much more difficult. Because of course they're not actually becoming the opposite sex, just making themselves look like the opposite sex (and nobody is obliged to accommodate their precious feelings by pretending any differently).

    It's a bit over-dramatic to call the alternative "repressing their sense of identity", as though simply shopping from the menswear department and not mutilating your genitals are unreasonably difficult to do. Nothing stops them from engaging in whatever other effeminate behaviours they want in their own private time.
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    (Original post by CookieButter)
    We live in a world where reality is independent of our thoughts. We can believe what we like of things. We can believe that we are space rockets. This belief doesn't change the reality that we are human. If we were to believe that every subjective opinion was true of reality then we would literally have no place for psychiatric medicine....nobody would be considered crazy. All our thoughts would be true ... A person who thinks that they were a space rocket would have to be treated like one and instead of receiving the medical help that they need would be shot out into space. this is lunacy!!!!!!! This is crazy!!!

    Reality is independent of our thoughts. Our thoughts have to objectively conform with reality to be accepted as truths....A woman who feels like a man does not become one irrespective of her thoughts and feelings. I can operate on her face and on her body to make her appear more like a man..i can have her breasts removed...and give her all the HRT in the wold and a fake prosthetic penis ....it would not change her reality. She would remain a woman no matter what I do...Her genes, her DNA define her reality not her thoughts.

    Your way of thinking is so illogical and so crazy it is scary.... what is wrong with you people? A man who thinks he's a woman, becomes a woman? lol
    Er.... why exactly is it scary for you? Because you can't apply logic to it? Must we apply logic to everything?

    If a man feels like a woman, why don't we let him feel like a woman? Sure, he's not a woman in the true sense of the word, but so what? It's not like gender dysphoria is a common thing. Sure, it may be complicated to understand, but why waste even one iota of your time worrying about it?
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    (Original post by CookieButter)
    We live in a world where reality is independent of our thoughts. We can believe what we like of things. We can believe that we are space rockets. This belief doesn't change the reality that we are human. If we were to believe that every subjective opinion was true of reality then we would literally have no place for psychiatric medicine....nobody would be considered crazy. All our thoughts would be true ... A person who thinks that they were a space rocket would have to be treated like one and instead of receiving the medical help that they need would be shot out into space. this is lunacy!!!!!!! This is crazy!!!

    Reality is independent of our thoughts. Our thoughts have to objectively conform with reality to be accepted as truths....A woman who feels like a man does not become one irrespective of her thoughts and feelings. I can operate on her face and on her body to make her appear more like a man..i can have her breasts removed...and give her all the HRT in the wold and a fake prosthetic penis ....it would not change her reality. She would remain a woman no matter what I do...Her genes, her DNA define her reality not her thoughts.

    Your way of thinking is so illogical and so crazy it is scary.... what is wrong with you people? A man who thinks he's a woman, becomes a woman? lol
    Except that's not what I was saying so good one. I was saying that why shouldn't someone who wants to be the opposite sex get the operation? They know that genetically and biologically they can't become the opposite sex, but if they might as well have if their body looks extremely similar to it.
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    Nobody's stopping them from getting sex change surgery, but they should just be warned about the myriad of issues and complications it can cause in later life. Anything from finding a relationship, having children or simply using the bathroom will become so much more difficult. Because of course they're not actually becoming the opposite sex, just making themselves look like the opposite sex (and nobody is obliged to accommodate their precious feelings by pretending any differently).

    It's a bit over-dramatic to call the alternative "repressing their sense of identity", as though simply shopping from the menswear department and not mutilating your genitals are unreasonably difficult to do. Nothing stops them from engaging in whatever other effeminate behaviours they want in their own private time.
    Obviously anyone who gets the operation would have given all of these issues a lot of thought, you're acting as if anyone can just waltz into a clinic and have the operation done. I'm also pretty sure one has to live as the sex they want to be for quite some time before actually getting the operation. Your understanding of these people's mentality is abysmal. It's not a case of what they can do as they could obviously buy clothes, but probably that for them that would be a rather superficial change if their body doesn't at least look like the sex they want to be.
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    (Original post by cherryred90s)
    I don't really like the sound of it.

    What about women with daughters? Would they feel comfortable aiding their daughter in the toilet whilst a grown man is in the cubicle directly next to them who could take a peek if he wanted to?
    Sure, it could happen. But then again, even if there weren't any gender neutral toilets that situation could arise. You don't enter a code or swipe to enter toilets.

    Having gender neutral toilets would nullify to a certain degree what is extremely unequal enforcement. People who 'look' trans would essentially be vilified for daring to enter a toilet whose gender they identify with.

    To put it bluntly, those with deviant and suspicious intentions are only kept out of female or male only toilets as a result of convention - societal norm and those of course aren't barriers to whatever they want to do.
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    (Original post by Chúpamela porfi)
    Obviously anyone who gets the operation would have given all of these issues a lot of thought, you're acting as if anyone can just waltz into a clinic and have the operation done. I'm also pretty sure one has to live as the sex they want to be for quite some time before actually getting the operation.
    Well if they've given the issues so much thought and still want a sex change, they won't mind just accept all the problems that come with it rather than getting annoyed they can't use a particular toilet or someone called them by a different pronoun.

    Your understanding of these people's mentality is abysmal. It's not a case of what they can do as they could obviously buy clothes, but probably that for them that would be a rather superficial change if their body doesn't at least look like the sex they want to be.
    You misunderstand. I'm talking about wearing the clothes of their own sex, keeping the genitals they were born with, keeping the gendered name they were born with etc. This is not an unreasonably difficult thing to do.

    If they want to have a sex change so strongly that they're willing to accept all the issues and problems that come with it, then it's fine, that's their choice. But then there's no need to start playing the victim card after that. Nobody forced them to have a sex change. They knew the risks and all the other consequences, and still chose it.
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    If they want to have a sex change so strongly that they're willing to accept all the issues and problems that come with it, then it's fine, that's their choice. But then there's no need to start playing the victim card after that. Nobody forced them to have a sex change. They knew the risks and all the other consequences, and still chose it.
    Seeing as you're one of TSR's religious nutjobs, I'll use this example to highlight what a silly argument you put forth:

    If they want to wear the hijab so badly that they're willing to accept all the issues and problems that come with it, then it's fine, that's their choice. But then there's no need to start playing the victim card after that. Nobody forced them to wear the hijab. They knew the risks and all the other consequences, and still chose to wear it.
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    Well if they've given the issues so much thought and still want a sex change, they won't mind just accept all the problems that come with it rather than getting annoyed they can't use a particular toilet or someone called them by a different pronoun.



    You misunderstand. I'm talking about wearing the clothes of their own sex, keeping the genitals they were born with, keeping the gendered name they were born with etc. This is not an unreasonably difficult thing to do.

    If they want to have a sex change so strongly that they're willing to accept all the issues and problems that come with it, then it's fine, that's their choice. But then there's no need to start playing the victim card after that. Nobody forced them to have a sex change. They knew the risks and all the other consequences, and still chose it.
    I'm not quite sure you're getting it. When they have the sex change they'll physically look like the sex they wanted to be, down there. You can of course look like the opposite sex without having a sex change operation but that's a different story. Once they've had the operation they will be able to use the toilets of the sex they feel like without anyone knowing they were born the opposite gender and would obviously be happy because they've got what they wanted so why would they be annoyed???? And if they look like the sex they feel then most ppl will get the pronoun right anyway and if they don't the person can politely correct them so not really an issue.

    It is a very unreasonable request to demand or expect a person with gender dysphoria to dress like and act like the sex they don't feel like. Why should they have to do that when it is psychologically damaging for them to? Gender dysphoria isn't a mental health problem for nothing you know.

    I don't really get what your last paragraph is saying. Who is playing the victim after the sex operation? Your victim hood thing only really applies to ppl who don't look like the sex they want to be, for example a very obvious male in a dress wanting to use the women's toilets. But a man who has undergone the sex change operation and looks indistinguishable from a biological woman would be able to do this without anyone being none the wiser. Why would these ppl be playing the victim?
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    (Original post by Dara Dahl)
    Seeing as you're one of TSR's religious nutjobs, I'll use this example to highlight what a silly argument you put forth:

    If they want to wear the hijab so badly that they're willing to accept all the issues and problems that come with it, then it's fine, that's their choice. But then there's no need to start playing the victim card after that. Nobody forced them to wear the hijab. They knew the risks and all the other consequences, and still chose to wear it.
    Exactly what issues and problems come specifically with wearing a hijab, that you think its wearers are unwilling to accept?
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    Exactly what issues and problems come specifically with wearing a hijab, that you think its wearers are unwilling to accept?
    Take your pick from the bigot's list of problems with hijab wearers. It seems the point flew right over your head.
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    (Original post by Chúpamela porfi)
    I'm not quite sure you're getting it. When they have the sex change they'll physically look like the sex they wanted to be, down there. You can of course look like the opposite sex without having a sex change operation but that's a different story. Once they've had the operation they will be able to use the toilets of the sex they feel like without anyone knowing they were born the opposite gender and would obviously be happy because they've got what they wanted so why would they be annoyed???? And if they look like the sex they feel then most ppl will get the pronoun right anyway and if they don't the person can politely correct them so not really an issue.

    I don't really get what your last paragraph is saying. Who is playing the victim after the sex operation? Your victim hood thing only really applies to ppl who don't look like the sex they want to be, for example a very obvious male in a dress wanting to use the women's toilets. But a man who has undergone the sex change operation and looks indistinguishable from a biological woman would be able to do this without anyone being none the wiser. Why would these ppl be playing the victim?
    I am a man. Suppose I were able to disguise myself so well that I can look just like a woman. Is it okay for me to start going into women's bathrooms and changing rooms? Of course it isn't. It doesn't matter how proficient you are at making yourself look like the opposite sex, it does not mean you actually belong in their bathroom or changing room.

    It is a very unreasonable request to demand or expect a person with gender dysphoria to dress like and act like the sex they don't feel like. Why should they have to do that when it is psychologically damaging for them to? Gender dysphoria isn't a mental health problem for nothing you know.
    I'm not demanding or expecting that they should do it. They can dress and act in whatever way they like, if that's what makes them happy. The point is, it's their choice, and any consequences or life difficulties that come with it belong to them. Some people might kindly try to accommodate them and help them to deal with these issues, but it is not society's responsibility to be accommodating to issues they created for themselves.
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    (Original post by Dara Dahl)
    Take your pick from the bigot's list of problems with hijab wearers. It seems the point flew right over your head.
    I simply contend that the hijab itself doesn't cause many problems for anyone in life at all, except for perhaps making your head feel a bit too warm on a hot summers day. If there are other problems, then I completely agree with what many non-religious people say about the hijab - that society is under no obligation to go out of its way to accommodate you for something you chose by yourself.

    Sure, a person wearing a hijab may also be subject to racism and bigotry, but that's the fault of the bigot/racist themselves. They're the ones going out of their way to create the problem, not the piece of cloth on your head.


    However, sex changes cause problems and complications in and of themselves; not just by people going out of their way to make life difficult for you. Obviously it is wrong for people to do that, but then they're under no obligation to try and accommodate you either.
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    I am a man. Suppose I were able to disguise myself so well that I can look just like a woman. Is it okay for me to start going into women's bathrooms and changing rooms? Of course it isn't. It doesn't matter how proficient you are at making yourself look like the opposite sex, it does not mean you actually belong in their bathroom or changing room.



    I'm not demanding or expecting that they should do it. They can dress and act in whatever way they like, if that's what makes them happy. The point is, it's their choice, and any consequences or life difficulties that come with it belong to them. Some people might kindly try to accommodate them and help them to deal with these issues, but it is not society's responsibility to be accommodating to issues they created for themselves.
    your picking dumb examples that dont help you. as far as i know there have been no cases of ppl who dont have gender dysphoria disguising themselves to enter the opposite sex's toilet to do something like a sexual assault. if someone has had the operation and looks like the sex they want to be then they can use that toilet, end of. there are probably many ppl who already do this, even those who havent had the operation. consequences and difficulties come from many life decisions but your sentence still doesnt make sense. if someone has for all intents and purposes become the opposite gender then how exactly is society accommodating specifically their needs???? they will just act like the opposite sex and do the things their sex already does, no special privileges are needed
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    (Original post by Chúpamela porfi)
    your picking dumb examples that dont help you. as far as i know there have been no cases of ppl who dont have gender dysphoria disguising themselves to enter the opposite sex's toilet to do something like a sexual assault. if someone has had the operation and looks like the sex they want to be then they can use that toilet, end of. there are probably many ppl who already do this, even those who havent had the operation.
    It doesn't matter whether this has or hasn't happened before. The point is, how convincingly you can make yourself look like the opposite sex doesn't make it appropriate to use their facilities.

    consequences and difficulties come from many life decisions but your sentence still doesnt make sense. if someone has for all intents and purposes become the opposite gender then how exactly is society accommodating specifically their needs???? they will just act like the opposite sex and do the things their sex already does, no special privileges are needed
    The special privilege they're asking for is the right to use the bathrooms and changing rooms of opposite sex, just because they (perhaps) manage to make themselves look like a member of the opposite sex.

    It is not normally considered appropriate for people to just dress up in the opposite sex's clothes and walk in.
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    It doesn't matter whether this has or hasn't happened before. The point is, how convincingly you can make yourself look like the opposite sex doesn't make it appropriate to use their facilities.



    The special privilege they're asking for is the right to use the bathrooms and changing rooms of opposite sex, just because they (perhaps) manage to make themselves look like a member of the opposite sex.

    It is not normally considered appropriate for people to just dress up in the opposite sex's clothes and walk in.
    yes it does, there havent been examples of this happening, so if someone with gender dysphoria feels like the opposite sex and convincingly looks like they opposite sex then they can and should use those toilets. what ppl can do is obviously based around the unspoken rule that ppl use the things for an intended purpose. its silly to stop them using those toilets on the dumb and unlikely notion that someone could disguise themselves for the purposes of sexual assault. if your going to use that kind of reasoning then you can literally find fault with any human system in place because theres always the possibility it will be abused by someone.

    bathrooms are based on sex and how one displays sex, not genes as there is no genetic and chromosomal test to use a particular bathroom so if they look like that gender, feel like that gender etc then they can and do use the appropriate bathroom.
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    (Original post by Chúpamela porfi)
    yes it does, there havent been examples of this happening, so if someone with gender dysphoria feels like the opposite sex and convincingly looks like they opposite sex then they can and should use those toilets.
    Firstly, you have no idea whether there have been examples of this happening or not. If someone did manage to successfully enter the bathroom of the opposite sex under disguise, there's no reason why you would ever find out about it.

    Secondly, it doesn't matter whether there have actually been examples of this happening or not. Either way, it would be considered highly inappropriate (and potentially illegal) to disguise yourself as the opposite sex and use their facilities, so there's no reason why some individuals should be given the special right to do this.
 
 
 
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