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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    Fitt said a hard Brexit "would probably be the biggest disaster for the university sector in many years."

    Frankly, that is crap.

    If you make widgets, a hard Brexit means that you have no impact on the standards the EU sets for widgets and EU importers of UK widgets will have to pay input duties on those widgets. If UK widget production is subsidised by the UK government, the EU may impose anti-dumping duties. British widget producers may struggle to recruit enough staff without unskilled labour from the EU.

    But none of that relates across to higher education.

    Three things matter to HE. One is that the qualifications offered in the UK continue to be recognised within the EU. The others are related. They are participation in EU funded research projects and replacing lost EU funding None of these are likely to be affected by the hardness or softness of Brexit.

    UK immigration controls will have a greater effect on university kitchens and halls of residence than they will have on university labs.
    PRSOM.

    Good post. I believe you voted Remain but I totally respect that view because unlike many others on that side of the debate you are intellectually honest.
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    (Original post by Trinculo)
    Brookes people saying they're from Oxford is like the most normal thing in the world, it's actually or surprising when they don't do it.

    I've heard it all. "I studied in Oxford" "Just finished uni in Oxford" "Where did I go to university? Oxford" "In Oxford, we did..."
    Don't see the harm. It's rather sweet actually. :teehee:
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    But he was asked about a hard Brexit. These are essentially concerns about a Brexit at all, or about the willingness of the UK government to fund UK research.

    The hardness or softness of Brexit are questions about the markets in goods, services and labour.

    Universities don't sell goods; there is a more or less worldwide free market in education services (certainly there are no tariff barriers) and it is improbable that any restrictions on the movement of labour will significantly impact academics.
    I agree that the hard/soft issue is a bit irrelevant and yes, I was speaking to Brexit generally, which as I said (and numerous academics and research people will be happy to confirm) is extremely threatening to the whole sector.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Don't see the harm. It's rather sweet actually. :teehee:


    This is the image that springs to mind.
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    (Original post by Trinculo)


    This is the image that springs to mind.
    :lol:

    I was thinking more this.

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    (Original post by zayn008)
    If he's from oxford uni he's an elitist so I don't care, if he's from Brooke's he's got no position and holds an educated but still debatable view like most people so my point is, whoever it is. It means nothing
    So essentially, no one can have an opinion that means anything?

    (Original post by astutehirstute)
    He is not an Oxford academic he works at Brooke's.

    Not that it matters what he thinks one way or the other.:rolleyes:
    ... Why does it not matter what he thinks? As students, we largely rely on the theories and arguments presented by academics in our research. When we conceive real life situations, such as Brexit, surely it becomes ever-more important to do this?
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    (Original post by IFoundWonderland)
    So essentially, no one can have an opinion that means anything?


    ... Why does it not matter what he thinks? As students, we largely rely on the theories and arguments presented by academics in our research. When we conceive real life situations, such as Brexit, surely it becomes ever-more important to do this?
    One academic at a middle ranking university is hardly enough to convince people of the views. Lots of us have negative opinions of academics as detached and so focused on pushing ideas around they've lost sight of objectivity.
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    (Original post by IFoundWonderland)
    So essentially, no one can have an opinion that means anything?


    ... Why does it not matter what he thinks? As students, we largely rely on the theories and arguments presented by academics in our research. When we conceive real life situations, such as Brexit, surely it becomes ever-more important to do this?
    Well his opinion is just as good or bad as the next persons. People need to wait, see what the government plans then with facts analysis the consequences of such actions. Anyone blabbering on about the future right is just useless, because they don't know what direction we're heading for yet.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    I agree that the hard/soft issue is a bit irrelevant and yes, I was speaking to Brexit generally, which as I said (and numerous academics and research people will be happy to confirm) is extremely threatening to the whole sector.
    This whole business of seeing Brexit as "threatening" is the problem. A big problem.

    Academe is a cosseted, inward looking world resistant to change. I get that. It is dominated by liberals who will have voted Remain. I get that. It is a special interest group fighting for its share of the financial pie. I get that too.

    But it is just making a fool of itself with this hysterical campaign against Brexit itself. The people have voted, we live in a democracy, and the university sector needs to get over itself, understand that it isn't the nation but just a tiny part of it. And get on with lobbying for funds in the post Brexit UK.

    The farmers have a much more uncertain future post Brexit. Agricultural subsidies make university grants look like ants compared to an elephant. But you don't see farmers whinging like this. Why?
    Most of the voted Leave.

    That is ALL this is. People who voted Remain not accepting the decision of the wider country. It is getting VERY tiresome indeed.
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    (Original post by IFoundWonderland)
    So essentially, no one can have an opinion that means anything?


    ... Why does it not matter what he thinks? As students, we largely rely on the theories and arguments presented by academics in our research. When we conceive real life situations, such as Brexit, surely it becomes ever-more important to do this?
    Please read other posts on this thread to see where he is wrong. It is been covered very well.

    As for students accepting the opinions of academics on "real life situations, such as Brexit" that is the saddest thing I have read on TSR all year.
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    (Original post by astutehirstute)
    This whole business of seeing Brexit as "threatening" is the problem. A big problem.

    Academe is a cosseted, inward looking world resistant to change. I get that. It is dominated by liberals who will have voted Remain. I get that. It is a special interest group fighting for its share of the financial pie. I get that too.

    But it is just making a fool of itself with this hysterical campaign against Brexit itself. The people have voted, we live in a democracy, and the university sector needs to get over itself, understand that it isn't the nation but just a tiny part of it. And get on with lobbying for funds in the post Brexit UK.

    The farmers have a much more uncertain future post Brexit. Agricultural subsidies make university grants look like ants compared to an elephant. But you don't see farmers whinging like this. Why?
    Most of the voted Leave.

    That is ALL this is. People who voted Remain not accepting the decision of the wider country. It is getting VERY tiresome indeed.
    You're obsessed with what you imagine to be the position of 'liberals' (whatever you think they are) in academia. For a start off, there are many in the centre and on the right working in these university jobs, so it is by no means the monochrome world of Chomsky-eating bearded anarchists you apparently imagine. Also, I accept the point that farmers will be affected but I think they also fall into the category of a sector soothed by government promises (which are worthless when analysed) and not yet facing the real hardship (which will only emerge when Brexit goes through to reality), whereas many academics are smart enough (a) not to take a Tory government or any British government at its word and (b) to be able to read the runes more accurately.

    Incidentally, if you visit the agricultural press websites you will see huge concerns starting to emerge about subsidy removal and the ability and commitment of HMG to replacing it in full.
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    (Original post by Tempest II)
    https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&so...MJ2IZKvo2bPtVQ

    On the other hand, the Governor of the Bank of England has now come out & said the EU will be economical worst off than the UK if a "hard" Brexit happens.
    I am surprised at that, but I do trust Mark Carney. He's competent, sane, capable and surprisingly honest considering his job.

    I'd like to hear his complete thoughts on the issue, but he's also cautious and competent enough that will never happen.
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    1. University and research funding will go down. Anyone who believes it will be picked up in full by the UK government is a fool.
    2. Foreign scientists and researchers have already left because of the uncertainty.
    3. This is not about the UK in general but higher education.
    4. If EU prices increase to current non-EU prices, you will see less students coming.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    You're obsessed with what you imagine to be the position of 'liberals' (whatever you think they are) in academia. For a start off, there are many in the centre and on the right working in these university jobs, so it is by no means the monochrome world of Chomsky-eating bearded anarchists you apparently imagine. Also, I accept the point that farmers will be affected but I think they also fall into the category of a sector soothed by government promises (which are worthless when analysed) and not yet facing the real hardship (which will only emerge when Brexit goes through to reality), whereas many academics are smart enough (a) not to take a Tory government or any British government at its word and (b) to be able to read the runes more accurately.

    Incidentally, if you visit the agricultural press websites you will see huge concerns starting to emerge about subsidy removal and the ability and commitment of HMG to replacing it in full.
    Please rate some other members before rating this member again

    Well put. I would like to add that just because a certain group says "we think a hard Brexit will be bad for us", does not mean "we are so important that because a hard Brexit is bad for us, it should not be done". Should they not say anything just so astutehirstute doesn't have to be tired of people speaking out? Lol.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    You're obsessed with what you imagine to be the position of 'liberals' (whatever you think they are) in academia. For a start off, there are many in the centre and on the right working in these university jobs, so it is by no means the monochrome world of Chomsky-eating bearded anarchists you apparently imagine.
    I don't know about being obsessed, but yes I do think that academia leans to the left. Others reading this thread can decide for themselves whether they agree. But let's concede your point for the sake of argument, and say it isn't.

    I put it to you that compared to the wider population at large, academics were disproportionately Remain voters. Do you dispute this?

    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Also, I accept the point that farmers will be affected but I think they also fall into the category of a sector soothed by government promises (which are worthless when analysed) and not yet facing the real hardship (which will only emerge when Brexit goes through to reality), whereas many academics are smart enough (a) not to take a Tory government or any British government at its word and (b) to be able to read the runes more accurately.

    Incidentally, if you visit the agricultural press websites you will see huge concerns starting to emerge about subsidy removal and the ability and commitment of HMG to replacing it in full.
    If you truly think that farmers are less hard bitten, cynical and preternaturally suspicious of all governments including Tory ones, I can only think you have never met one.

    The NFU is the one of the most powerful and feared lobbies in the whole country. They brought down one Tory Minister (Edwina Currie) in less than a week. If they wanted to campaign against Brexit, believe me it would have force and power. The University lobby are children by comparison, frankly.

    But farmers, despite all the money, hate the EU. They loathe it. It says something that an organisation which distributes such largesse can be so despised by so many of its recipients. They were as disproportionately Leave, as Academics were Remain.

    And that is why the NFU is the dog that hasn't barked.
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    (Original post by astutehirstute)
    I don't know about being obsessed, but yes I do think that academia leans to the left. Others reading this thread can decide for themselves whether they agree. But let's concede your point for the sake of argument, and say it isn't.

    I put it to you that compared to the wider population at large, academics were disproportionately Remain voters. Do you dispute this?



    If you truly think that farmers are less hard bitten, cynical and preternaturally suspicious of all governments including Tory ones, I can only think you have never met one.

    The NFU is the one of the most powerful and feared lobbies in the whole country. They brought down one Tory Minister (Edwina Currie) in less than a week. If they wanted to campaign against Brexit, believe me it would have force and power. The University lobby are children by comparison, frankly.

    But farmers, despite all the money, hate the EU. They loathe it. It says something that an organisation which distributes such largesse can be so despised by so many of its recipients. They were as disproportionately Leave, as Academics were Remain.

    And that is why the NFU is the dog that hasn't barked.
    Farmers are traditionally Tory, so that's got something to do with it. Also a lot of the subsidies go to landowners rather than farmers and those things aren't always the same thing, so that has something to do with it too. However, I think most likely it is the case that farmers simply trust a Tory government and deeply pro-farming-interests system to replace the subsidies when they get axed. The results will actually be terrible for many farmers, but time will tell. Lemmings really can vote for more cliff edges.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Farmers are traditionally Tory, so that's got something to do with it. Also a lot of the subsidies go to landowners rather than farmers and those things aren't always the same thing, so that has something to do with it too. However, I think most likely it is the case that farmers simply trust a Tory government and deeply pro-farming-interests system to replace the subsidies when they get axed. The results will actually be terrible for many farmers, but time will tell. Lemmings really can vote for more cliff edges.
    Look at the electoral map. Do you see all those big blue constituencies, all over England? The Tories will look after the farming lobby because that is what Tory Governments always do. And there won't be a Labour Government for many many years. If ever again.

    Farmers voted with their hearts, but they are tough, shrewd, unsentimental folk. They voted having made the calculation that their financial interests will be protected. And my money says it will be, not because the Tories look after their own, or care about farmers, but because they are frightened of them.

    Academics not so much. Which is why my advice to all the hysterical Vice Chancellors of second rate Universities is - it might be wise to pipe down.

    A period of silence on your part would both be welcome, and in your own best interests.
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    Should they not say anything just so astutehirstute doesn't have to be tired of people speaking out? Lol.
    The most sensible suggestion I have read all day.
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    (Original post by astutehirstute)
    Look at the electoral map. Do you see all those big blue constituencies, all over England? The Tories will look after the farming lobby because that is what Tory Governments always do. And there won't be a Labour Government for many many years. If ever again.

    Farmers voted with their hearts, but they are tough, shrewd, unsentimental folk. They voted having made the calculation that their financial interests will be protected. And my money says it will be, not because the Tories look after their own, or care about farmers, but because they are frightened of them.

    Academics not so much. Which is why my advice to all the hysterical Vice Chancellors of second rate Universities is - it might be wise to pipe down.

    A period of silence on your part would both be welcome, and in your own best interests.
    All due respect to farmers, but universities contribute far more to the UK economy than farming, not least to the sort of technical and scientific progress that we need to remain viable as an economy.

    The nostalgia for farming folk amongst kippers and Tories and the charmless love they return is no basis for planning our economic future.

    This kind of warped thinking illustrates why people like UKIP are unfit for government, since they have no real understanding of what makes Britain tick as an economy and are lost in special interests of narrow minorities of rich landed people who suckle relentlessly at the teat of taxpayer subsidies, whilst cursing the E. European migrants whose labour makes it possible.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    All due respect to farmers, but universities contribute far more to the UK economy than farming, not least to the sort of technical and scientific progress that we need to remain viable as an economy.
    Yes, universities contribute greatly to the UK economy, at the top end the research is world leading and of great benefit not just to us, but the whole planet.

    AND IT WILL CONTINUE TO BE AFTER BREXIT.

    But, with all due respect to you, we are talking about Brookes here. If we are debating what is of greater benefit to the UK, the products of a farmer or the research of a post colonialist social science academic, it is not even close.

    You can eat a steak or a potato. They keep you alive. There is nothing that can usefully be done with a book analysing concepts of gender and masculinity in 19th century Italian Opera (taken at random from the Brookes website) except maybe using it to wipe your @rse. And it is not a particularly economically efficient way even of doing that...

    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)

    This kind of warped thinking illustrates why people like UKIP are unfit for government
    Ha ha ha! You can think that if it cheers you up, be my guest. But it shows a signal lack of understanding of British politics.

    Sure, UKIP will never form its own government. But that is not the point! It doesn't need to form its own administration because this Government is pursuing ALL its key policies!

    UKIP are the Fabians of our time. They never formed their own administration, either, but the 1945 Labour Government was the result of all their ideas.

    You can think of Nigel Farage as a modern day Sydney Webb if you like.
 
 
 
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