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The Pope on Women.... watch

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    (Original post by jamal1425)
    Whoever has given me a negative rep, I suspect that it is Huntroyde,
    You're far too kind!!
    It was not me, my negative rep would have put you into red gems
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    When I said Rape was norm now, I meant that Rape is common-place now, and I didn't justify rape, certainly not, it is one of the most evil
    things.

    A point was made that:

    "Women should have the freedom to dress how they wish without being raped. "She was dressing provocatively" does not cut it with rape, not for a second."

    I disagree. Prostitutes dress in a certain way for a certain purpose, nuns dress in a certain way for a ceratin purpose, I'#m not equating all women to prostitutes, but how many rapes and subsequent murders are there of young women in their early 20's out for a drink , or clubbing or whatever? Many. But the point I am trying to make is that with maximum exposure and minimal censorship as it were, in todays society, theses young women clubbing or out partying , dressed improperly, revealing their bodies, are going to get evil looks from some men. And how many examples of nuns getting raped are there?

    There was also a point about trust in relationships, and about women not being able to talk to strangers. Islam necessitates that there shoudl be minimum contact between the sexes, this is not to bring about a barrier between the two sexes, rather to keep their modesty in tact. Modesty, especially in todays scoiety, Im sure everyne will agree is gone completely. Not so long ago, women had more modesty in Brtian, when people were generally more "religious".

    And on the issue of veiling, the women who choose not to veil, wear their own clothes right? But are they not submitting to the wims and sesires of men??? How you may ask? WEll, all or most of theses fashionable designer clothes are designed by men, sick perverted men, who design clothes to please themselves, or maximise exposure, becuase it pleases them. When women wear theses clothes, knowing fully they are exposing, they are not wearing clothes - as Adam and Eve covered themselves, out of modesty- rather they are wearing clothes to draw in men with perveted minds.

    About men veiling, well there are ettiqutes men should also follow when it comes to modesty. This involves minimum contact with starngers (i.e. non relate femlaes) because when a man and a woman are alone together, the devil encompanis them. Islam does not instruct men to veil because it is a well known fact that men have a more innate desire for women, then do women of men, althoguh that is not to say women are inferior in that sense. A womesn' source of beauty is her face, so does it not make sense to veil the face in order to protct oneselves, and preserve her beauty for her husband only. It is not an issue of trust, about not letting your wife speak to other men, it is a matter of protecting youirselves from falling into sin. And yes trust can be the reason for a marriage failing, but far too often nowadasy, a marriage breaks down becuase of a seceret affair or something of that sort.
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    (Original post by Lord Huntroyde)
    It was not me, my negative rep would have put you into red gems
    Well then, you can have the privilege of taking me into red gems. By all means, go for it!
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    (Original post by jamal1425)
    Well then, you can have the privilege of taking me into red gems. By all means, go for it!
    I've put you back into green
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    (Original post by jamal1425)
    "Women should have the freedom to dress how they wish without being raped. "She was dressing provocatively" does not cut it with rape, not for a second."

    I disagree. Prostitutes dress in a certain way for a certain purpose, nuns dress in a certain way for a ceratin purpose, I'#m not equating all women to prostitutes, but how many rapes and subsequent murders are there of young women in their early 20's out for a drink , or clubbing or whatever? Many. But the point I am trying to make is that with maximum exposure and minimal censorship as it were, in todays society, theses young women clubbing or out partying , dressed improperly, revealing their bodies, are going to get evil looks from some men. And how many examples of nuns getting raped are there?
    Do you have no appreciation of human rights or freedoms whatsoever? Exposure may make men want to have sex with women but it's not an invite and the men need to respect the woman's choice not to have sex or be groped or oogled at. You are essentially punishing the victim here, men should be responsible for controlling their eyes, arms and penis, and yet you make women suffer the consequences of the fact that occasionally they don't.
    There was also a point about trust in relationships, and about women not being able to talk to strangers. Islam necessitates that there shoudl be minimum contact between the sexes, this is not to bring about a barrier between the two sexes, rather to keep their modesty in tact.
    Even most modern muslims see this as outdated and unnecessary. Respect and rights are on the whole adhered to in western culture, and so the practical solutions of islamic culture are unnecessary. I can talk to my female muslim friends, and they know I'm not going to touch them, or perv on them.

    The fact that Islam views the sexes as too immature to mix without being responsible is not a good thing.

    Modesty, especially in todays scoiety, Im sure everyne will agree is gone completely. Not so long ago, women had more modesty in Brtian, when people were generally more "religious".
    We are less sensitive and sexually tied up. We are no longer freaked out by seeing somebody's ankle. I view this as a good thing.

    And on the issue of veiling, the women who choose not to veil, wear their own clothes right? But are they not submitting to the wims and sesires of men??? How you may ask? WEll, all or most of theses fashionable designer clothes are designed by men, sick perverted men, who design clothes to please themselves, or maximise exposure, becuase it pleases them. When women wear theses clothes, knowing fully they are exposing, they are not wearing clothes - as Adam and Eve covered themselves, out of modesty- rather they are wearing clothes to draw in men with perveted minds.
    Some clothes are designed by women ya know? And the men who design clothes, they're responding to market demands for women who want such clothes.

    About men veiling, well there are ettiqutes men should also follow when it comes to modesty. This involves minimum contact with starngers (i.e. non relate femlaes) because when a man and a woman are alone together, the devil encompanis them.
    Immature and childish views of the sexes again.

    Islam does not instruct men to veil because it is a well known fact that men have a more innate desire for women, then do women of men, althoguh that is not to say women are inferior in that sense. A womesn' source of beauty is her face, so does it not make sense to veil the face in order to protct oneselves, and preserve her beauty for her husband only. It is not an issue of trust, about not letting your wife speak to other men, it is a matter of protecting youirselves from falling into sin. And yes trust can be the reason for a marriage failing, but far too often nowadasy, a marriage breaks down becuase of a seceret affair or something of that sort.
    Removing all responsibility from the people involved is destined to fail. People are intelligent, capable of mature attitudes and behaviour. Adultery happens in islamic cultures too. Adultery concerns 3 people and is a matter of trust. So when tribal juries in pakistan sentence people's family's to gangrape because one person is seen walking with a member of the opposite sex, I see this as a failure of oppressive, immature ways.
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    The catholic church has not evoled with time to adapt to new changes in society and thus will suffer from decreasing support untill it eventual ceases to exist.
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    Do you have no appreciation of human rights or freedoms whatsoever? Exposure may make men want to have sex with women but it's not an invite and the men need to respect the woman's choice not to have sex or be groped or oogled at. You are essentially punishing the victim here, men should be responsible for controlling their eyes, arms and penis, and yet you make women suffer the consequences of the fact that occasionally they don't.

    My repsosne to your first question posed is , NO. Define human rights! The right to go around like animals, semi-nude, revealing all or msot of your body!!!??

    "men should be responsible for controlling their eyes, arms and penis, and yet you make women suffer the consequences of the fact that occasionally they don't."

    It takes two to tango, Islam sets up clear ruels for both sexes, men and women, on how they should conduct themsleves in the presence of the opposite sex. These such laws existed in Britain not so long ago, but as you point out rightly, your not freaked out, anymore, to see someones ankles. But again, I ask you, what us your point? Are the ankles of a person the source of their beauty?


    "Even most modern muslims see this as outdated and unnecessary. Respect and rights are on the whole adhered to in western culture, and so the practical solutions of islamic culture are unnecessary. I can talk to my female muslim friends, and they know I'm not going to touch them, or perv on them.

    -Yes, this is how badly society has chanegd. People no longer have any senes of shame or morality even.

    "The fact that Islam views the sexes as too immature to mix without being responsible is not a good thing." - this is not the case. Islam acknowledges that feelings arise between a man and woman. These feelings are evil and damage society if they are not controlled properly. The free-mixing of the sxes leads to fornication and adultery among other things, and this is a thing forbidden in Islam.

    "We are less sensitive and sexually tied up. We are no longer freaked out by seeing somebody's ankle. I view this as a good thing." - Well I diagree. I see it as the oppsite, see above regarding the ankels, but generally speaking it's the way society has chanegd, and people have abandoned their belif and reloigion. This is why crime has rissen so sharply compared to the British societies for example a few centuries ago, when Catholic women veiled. Veiling is now looked down upon because it cotnradicts the present idealogy of maxiumum exposure.

    "Some clothes are designed by women ya know? And the men who design clothes, they're responding to market demands for women who want such clothes. " - This is absurd. These fashion designers are middle aged men, unmarried most of them, and the way they "enjoy" themsleves, is by getting young mdoels to wear theses semi-nude clothes. And theses models are looked upto by younger girls who'll go out and imitate them. This is damaging the society.

    Removing all responsibility from the people involved is destined to fail. People are intelligent, capable of mature attitudes and behaviour. Adultery happens in islamic cultures too. Adultery concerns 3 people and is a matter of trust. So when tribal juries in pakistan sentence people's family's to gangrape because one person is seen walking with a member of the opposite sex, I see this as a failure of oppressive, immature ways.

    Adultery is present in all societies, I did not say that Islamic societie are free from all evils and crimes.

    "So when tribal juries in pakistan sentence people's family's to gangrape because one person is seen walking with a member of the opposite sex, I see this as a failure of oppressive, immature ways."

    - I've never heard of this. It is improper anyway for a man to walk with a non related female anyway, as I said when a man and woman are alone, satan accompanies them, in order to tempt. you cannot deny this. you may think my views are outdated, but i think if our societies returned to the way they were, if people embraced religion again properly, we would be able to get rid of some of societies evils, becuase we would implementing the dvine laws of God as the Prophets implemented them and taught them.
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    (Original post by Lord Huntroyde)
    I've put you back into green
    Thank you, thats very nice of you.
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    (Original post by jamal1425)
    My repsosne to your first question posed is , NO. Define human rights! The right to go around like animals, semi-nude, revealing all or msot of your body!!!??
    To do what you want with YOUR body yes.


    It takes two to tango
    It takes one to rape. I find it offensive that hold women at all responsible for getting raped.

    Islam sets up clear ruels for both sexes, men and women, on how they should conduct themsleves in the presence of the opposite sex. These such laws existed in Britain not so long ago, but as you point out rightly, your not freaked out, anymore, to see someones ankles. But again, I ask you, what us your point? Are the ankles of a person the source of their beauty?
    My point was that we live in a free, progressive society which has a mature and sensible attitude to sex.

    Yes, this is how badly society has chanegd. People no longer have any senes of shame or morality even.
    Your world must suck when you cut out potential friendship with half the world, I love my friends, I'm so glad I don't have silly immature hangups about sex with them.


    I've never heard of this. It is improper anyway for a man to walk with a non related female anyway, as I said when a man and woman are alone, satan accompanies them, in order to tempt. you cannot deny this. you may think my views are outdated, but i think if our societies returned to the way they were, if people embraced religion again properly, we would be able to get rid of some of societies evils, becuase we would implementing the dvine
    No, we would find ourselves in a backwards immature society which resorted to brutal punishments for human behaviour like...friendship, and we'd all be miserable because we'd all be limited to simple predetermined lifestyles which left our intelligence to wilt.
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    (Original post by fishpaste)
    "Ratzinger does not say how this is to be done, but it is clear he sees it as a way of encouraging women to spend as much time as possible in the home. "

    The vatican isn't just saying that if you choose to have a family it should take priority over a career, it seems, but that women should choose a family, and not a career. It troubles me that Ann would probably agree with something that would ultimately cast her as irresponsible.
    I dont that is necessarily true. Firstly, Ratzinger has been intepreted and then you are making another interpretation on that. It is clear that the church believes women have a vital role to play in the home, more so than the male, and thus want to see them spend as much time with their family as possible. I personally believe this even suggests time with your children in the home be compromised if the woman also has a career or job etc. It is basically asserting what I said before, that the family should come before material desires and the pressures of pursuing a career. This is no less true for a man, but since his contribution differs, so does the relationship between job and home.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    I dont that is necessarily true. Firstly, Ratzinger has been intepreted and then you are making another interpretation on that. It is clear that the church believes women have a vital role to play in the home, more so than the male, and thus want to see them spend as much time with their family as possible. I personally believe this even suggests time with your children in the home be compromised if the woman also has a career or job etc. It is basically asserting what I said before, that the family should come before material desires and the pressures of pursuing a career. This is no less true for a man, but since his contribution differs, so does the relationship between job and home.
    And you don't think Ann has neglected to heed that advice?
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    (Original post by jamal1425)
    When I said Rape was norm now, I meant that Rape is common-place now,
    yes, thats what we disagreed with. Rape is not common-place.

    are going to get evil looks from some men. And how many examples of nuns getting raped are there?
    firstly, all men that look at women dont do so with the intent to rape them. That is a most horrificly sensational accusation. There is nothing evil about a man being sexually attracted to a woman providing he still treats her with respect. Western society(for the sake of the argument) treats man and woman as equal and thus, it is UPTO THE MAN to treat the woman with respect and to not violate her. This is the crucial difference. Since you(an Islamic society) dont hold the same respect for women, it is they who must adapt to suit the wants of men.

    on a point of logic. Find me a few thousand 20yr old nuns in London on a Saturday night and then we may discuss the relevance of their attire.

    There was also a point about trust in relationships, and about women not being able to talk to strangers. Islam necessitates that there shoudl be minimum contact between the sexes, this is not to bring about a barrier between the two sexes, rather to keep their modesty in tact. Modesty, especially in todays scoiety, Im sure everyne will agree is gone completely. Not so long ago, women had more modesty in Brtian, when people were generally more "religious".
    but not by the same means. British women still had male friends, British women still had basic human rights to do as they pleased. I dont agree with alot of what we see today, but I recognise that this is the first time women have been able to express themselves and determine themselves away from the home and away from men. our society has moved on, women, like homosexuals are treated with the equality of respect they deserve. That is ultimately preferable to living in a society where they are denied basic human freedoms because there is an acknowledged inequality between men and women.

    And on the issue of veiling, the women who choose not to veil, wear their own clothes right? But are they not submitting to the wims and sesires of men??? How you may ask? WEll, all or most of theses fashionable designer clothes are designed by men, sick perverted men,
    no, they are choosing the clothes that they feel most comfortable or attractive in. stressing the words CHOOSE and THEY.

    how can you justify i) all clothes designers are men?! ii) all men interested in fashion are "sick, perverted" ?!

    who design clothes to please themselves, or maximise exposure, becuase it pleases them. When women wear theses clothes, knowing fully they are exposing, they are not wearing clothes - as Adam and Eve covered themselves, out of modesty- rather they are wearing clothes to draw in men with perveted minds.
    firstly, most men are attracted to the female form, that is NOT perverted. secondly, I dont find anything wrong with a woman's right to appeal to that, and a man's right to appreciate it.

    About men veiling, well there are ettiqutes men should also follow when it comes to modesty. This involves minimum contact with starngers (i.e. non relate femlaes) because when a man and a woman are alone together, the devil encompanis them. Islam does not instruct men to veil because it is a well known fact that men have a more innate desire for women, then do women of men, althoguh that is not to say women are inferior in that sense. A womesn' source of beauty is her face, so does it not make sense to veil the face in order to protct oneselves, and preserve her beauty for her husband only. It is not an issue of trust, about not letting your wife speak to other men, it is a matter of protecting youirselves from falling into sin. And yes trust can be the reason for a marriage failing, but far too often nowadasy, a marriage breaks down becuase of a seceret affair or something of that sort.
    To be honest, for a religion that opposes sex and intimacy so much, it appears to be rather obsessed with it.
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    (Original post by fishpaste)
    Your world must suck when you cut out potential friendship with half the world, I love my friends, I'm so glad I don't have silly immature hangups about sex with them.
    yes, there does seem to be an obsession to prevent sex and intimacy at all costs, rather an exaggerated one. I believe it still has something to do with the idea of a male in Western society differing greatly from that in Islamic society or even the Arab World
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    To be honest, for a religion that opposes sex and intimacy so much, it appears to be rather obsessed with it.
    I have to say I very much agree with you here, maybe if arranged marriages weren't performed and women spent their lives with a man they chose and loved from the start the woman, or man would have no need to go off with another person.
    In the majority of cases adultery happens in a marriage because one person is unhappy, surely this is going to be more common place if the person does not choose their marriage partner.
    It is a natural thing to feel attracted to someone so why is the religion so keen to condemn those who wish to attract the opposite sex?
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    yes, there does seem to be an obsession to prevent sex and intimacy at all costs, rather an exaggerated one. I believe it still has something to do with the idea of a male in Western society differing greatly from that in Islamic society or even the Arab World
    It fails though. As you pointed out, it gets so obsessive that it spends most of the time trying to make sure it never happens. Then you just end up with a society that gets hung up on it, instead of enjoying a free and varied lifestyle which doesn't revolve around sex.
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    (Original post by jamal1425)
    My repsosne to your first question posed is , NO. Define human rights! The right to go around like animals, semi-nude, revealing all or msot of your body!!!??

    What, may I ask, about the human body is so revolting that could possibly justify an obsession with covering it up? The human body is a beautiful thing (cliche, I know). It seems to me that muslim society believes that men can't handle seeing it and women are consequently forced to compensate for that. Not only is that classifying men as weak but also, having excuses readily at hand for the inability of males to repress their urges likens them in some respect to the very same animals that you were so intent on comparing women to.


    (Original post by jamal1425)
    It takes two to tango, Islam sets up clear ruels for both sexes, men and women, on how they should conduct themsleves in the presence of the opposite sex. These such laws existed in Britain not so long ago, but as you point out rightly, your not freaked out, anymore, to see someones ankles. But again, I ask you, what us your point? Are the ankles of a person the source of their beauty?
    The rules may be clear but they certainly don't treat men and women as equals. On another note, as fishpaste said, it takes one to rape. And contrary to what you may think, rape has little to nothing to do with how revealing one is dressed. Rape is a crime of crime of power not lust. When determining their target a rapist is more likely to take into account whether a woman has keys in her hand than whether she's wearing a mini-skirt. When you defend veiling by saying, "A woman's source of beauty is her face," you undermine your arguement in regards to what women wear influence rape. Going by that statement, a woman could be wearing a g-string and pasties but as long as she's wearing a bag over her head she's safe from the evil wanton desires of men. And why in the world would you want to cover up something beautiful anyway?! By that logic we should all blanket our flower gardens for fear that they might be admire or picked by passerby.


    (Original post by jamal1425)
    "The fact that Islam views the sexes as too immature to mix without being responsible is not a good thing." - this is not the case. Islam acknowledges that feelings arise between a man and woman. These feelings are evil and damage society if they are not controlled properly. The free-mixing of the sxes leads to fornication and adultery among other things, and this is a thing forbidden in Islam.
    You say that like it's a guaranteed occurance that any two people given that they are of opposite sexes will automatically be lusting after one another. And Islam does view the sexes as immature when dealing with the other. Yes, although they do acknowledge that certain feelings MAY arise between a man and a woman, they automatically assume that any such feelings will overtake any semblence of rational thought. When relationships between men and women are depicted this way, we all might as well be raging sexaholics and forget the idea that a virgin exists in western society. It's just not in standing with this idea that "insurmountable evil" is present during any meeting between a man and a woman.

    (Original post by jamal1425)
    Veiling is now looked down upon because it cotnradicts the present idealogy of maxiumum exposure.
    Ideology of maximum exposure? More like minimal repression.

    (Original post by jamal1425)
    "Some clothes are designed by women ya know? And the men who design clothes, they're responding to market demands for women who want such clothes. " - This is absurd. These fashion designers are middle aged men, unmarried most of them, and the way they "enjoy" themsleves, is by getting young mdoels to wear theses semi-nude clothes. And theses models are looked upto by younger girls who'll go out and imitate them. This is damaging the society.
    Unmarried for the purpose of keeping sexual options open? Or because their desired partner wouldn't be accepted by society as a suitable companion and therefor a union isn't permitted? Im not making such a generalization as saying that every single clothes designer is gay. I think that you are ignoring the fact that a good portion of them wouldn't be tempted even by angelina jolie in her birthday suit. Even if said sex-driven middle-aged men completely comprised the majority in the business, they wouldn't be able to ignore the desires of the consumer.

    (Original post by jamal1425)
    Adultery is present in all societies, I did not say that Islamic societie are free from all evils and crimes.
    If these methods have proven an unsuccessful deterrent then what reason is left for forcing women to follow hijab?

    (Original post by jamal1425)
    ""So when tribal juries in pakistan sentence people's family's to gangrape because one person is seen walking with a member of the opposite sex, I see this as a failure of oppressive, immature ways."

    - I've never heard of this. It is improper anyway for a man to walk with a non related female anyway, as I said when a man and woman are alone, satan accompanies them, in order to tempt. you cannot deny this. you may think my views are outdated, but i think if our societies returned to the way they were, if people embraced religion again properly, we would be able to get rid of some of societies evils, becuase we would implementing the dvine laws of God as the Prophets implemented them and taught them.
    It is improper ANYWAY? :eek: You might want to clarify what you mean by that because you come across as supporting this kind of violent extremist reaction if such a situation did occur. Also, while I can't speak for that particular circumstance, your dismissive statement shows that you didn't exactly catch the point of providing such an example. Care to adress all the 'justified violence' of a similar nature that does occur in muslim society?
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    Women's qualities are...'Listening, welcoming, humility, faithfulness, praise and waiting.'

    Has he met any women?!

    Listening, no. Talking, yes.
    Welcoming - what kind of quality is that? For a holiday resort, yes. For a woman, no.
    Humility - as much as men ( )
    Faithfulness - she's a woman, not a dog!
    Praise - yes, all women do is tell their husbands how great they are!
    Waiting - again, a woman, NOT a dog.
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    It seems that what I have said has been gravely misinterpreted by some.

    Firstly, Islam is not obessed with sex and intimacy. Sex and intimaicy have become great evils of this society, im not saying the two mentioned things are evil themsleves, but the way they are veiwed now and the way people have lost shame and modesty in relation to them, societies have witnesed increasing numbers of rapes, divorces etc. Islam is ceratinly not obsessed with sex and intimiacy, rather it is the completle opposite. The western society is obseesed with sexual permissiveness and fornication and sex. For most proucts to sell, a semi-nude woman has to be seen using it or pictured beside it. This cannot be denied.

    On the issue of veiloing, the point I was trying to make, thoug h I did not make myself clear is that the face is the most imporant part to veil. Thats not to say the whoel of the body should not be veiled. The face is the source of beauty.

    When I said it is improper for a woman to talk to a starnger male, I meant exactly that. Simple thigns like this lead to bigger things, and one thing leads to another, this is undeniable.

    And Violence is not justified. When I said evils such as adultery exist in Isamic societies, i also meant exactly that. This is not a good thing, but in every society there are problems. In Islamic societies, evils such as adultery are dealt with properly - yes stoning, death- so justice is seen to be working, and it acts as a deterrant also, which is why adultery is far less common in Islamic societies than western societies.

    The human body is not revolting. It is intructed to be veilded becuae it is a source of beauty.

    And I will leave now, Im going off to see some relatives. I think if the WEstern Socities return to religion, return to the worship of one God, obey and implement His laws, then society will not be as wicked as it is today.

    10.11 . If God were to hasten on for men the ill ( that they have earned ) as they would hasten on the good , their respite would already have expired . But We suffer those who look not for the meeting with Us to wander blindly on in their contumacy .

    20.124 . But he who turneth away from remembrance of Me , his will be a narrow life , and I shall bring him blind to the assembly on the Day of Resurrection .

    20.125 . He will say : My Lord! Wherefore hast Thou gathered me ( hither ) blind , when I was wont to see?
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    When I said it is improper for a woman to talk to a starnger male, I meant exactly that. Simple thigns like this lead to bigger things, and one thing leads to another, this is undeniable.
    Immature and irresponsible attitudes to sex lead to far more problems than the mixing of the sexes will.
    And Violence is not justified. When I said evils such as adultery exist in Isamic societies, i also meant exactly that. This is not a good thing, but in every society there are problems. In Islamic societies, evils such as adultery are dealt with properly - yes stoning, death- so justice is seen to be working, and it acts as a deterrant also, which is why adultery is far less common in Islamic societies than western societies.
    Ahaha, you are arguing for stoning for adultery? Divorce and adultery being uncommon in Islam is niether fact, nor helpful to your point. If adultery results in your death by stoning then of course adultery is reduced, AT A HUMONGOUS COST TO SOCIETY.

    With respect to the rest of the post, we are going around in circles. *goes to enjoy his freedom*
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    (Original post by jamal1425)



    "Women should have the freedom to dress how they wish without being raped. "She was dressing provocatively" does not cut it with rape, not for a second."

    I disagree. Prostitutes dress in a certain way for a certain purpose, nuns dress in a certain way for a ceratin purpose, I'#m not equating all women to prostitutes, but how many rapes and subsequent murders are there of young women in their early 20's out for a drink , or clubbing or whatever? Many. But the point I am trying to make is that with maximum exposure and minimal censorship as it were, in todays society, theses young women clubbing or out partying , dressed improperly, revealing their bodies, are going to get evil looks from some men. And how many examples of nuns getting raped are there?
    MMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


    back to the old "women are either virgins or whores" argument.

    Prostitutes in Islamic countries wear veils - they are still prostitutes.

    But then in islam rape only occurs if there are 4 male muslim witnesses, otherwise it's the woman's fault and she will be punished.
 
 
 
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