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    (Original post by Stella Rubae)
    Most immigrants are a net negative on society.
    What evidence are you basing that on or is it something you made up?
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    It is not purely "immigration" that has a positive economic impact, but rather the free movement of people (this includes people's right to leave the country and go somewhere else too).

    The economic benefit is that, if an employer needs to hire someone to do a job, they can hire someone from a much wider pool of potential candidates. This ensures that they can get the best person for the job. It also stimulates competition for that job, which means people will work harder to do a good job. It makes the process more meritocratic i.e. success depends on how good you are rather than just having been born in the right place.

    On the flip side, if a person needs to try and get a job, they have a much larger range of potential jobs they can apply for, because there are no restrictions in terms of which country they can go to. This ensures that they can get the job most suitable for them, and also stimulates competition amongst employers to secure that person's services, which means they will want to provide better salaries and working conditions etc.

    It's already clear to see the economic detriment of Brexit, for example. Confidence in the economy has plummeted at the mere suggestion that the free movement of people (amongst other things) might be compromised.
    Also a lot of immigrants send money back to their families which drags money out of the country. Most immigrants work in low paid low skilled jobs so do not actually bring that much here in the way of skills and expertise. Also as I have already said I am more interested in the other effects as I believe there is more to life than money.
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    I think every country should be opened up to anyone who wants to go and live or work there, and anyone should be allowed to live anywhere. (But all countries would have to do it, it doesn't work if it's just a few).

    It would be the pinnacle of globalisation, creating a far more economically efficient world and facilitating a stronger interchange of social and cultural ideas and world views, creating further progress on that front too.
    nonsense what would happen is that all rich countries would have wealth dragged away by poorer countries with lower wage costs. America has seen a huge amount of jobs go to Mexico and China because they can't compete with their lower costs/higher efficiency.
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    (Original post by karl pilkington)
    Also a lot of immigrants send money back to their families which drags money out of the country. Most immigrants work in low paid low skilled jobs so do not actually bring that much here in the way of skills and expertise. Also as I have already said I am more interested in the other effects as I believe there is more to life than money.

    nonsense what would happen is that all rich countries would have wealth dragged away by poorer countries with lower wage costs. America has seen a huge amount of jobs go to Mexico and China because they can't compete with their lower costs/higher efficiency.
    Well yes, that's sort of the whole point. America may have seen many jobs go to Mexico and China, and rightly so, if they can't compete with lower costs and higher efficiency. Similarly, the reason why immigrants get low paid/low skilled jobs here is because they are more competitive when it comes to cost and efficiency. The impact of this would be to get America working harder to improve its own efficiency and lower its own costs, as well as getting the British labour pool to work harder to outcompete immigrants.

    It makes the world a more meritocratic and more competitive place. For the world as a whole, this is an economic benefit, because competition incentivises increased efficiency and productivity, and lower cost.

    Of course it doesn't benefit every single person individually. Competition is obviously undesirable to someone who feels he can't keep abreast of it, and wants to be wealthy in excess of the actual value he adds to the world.
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    (Original post by karl pilkington)
    This is kind of nonsense. English is maybe someone whose family has been here for maybe four generations
    No it isnt. He makes a very good point, which is who are the English? If you have studies any history, then you will know apart from the Ancient Britains, then the English as you call them are comrpised of successive waves of immigrants. You obviously show no understanding of this.
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    (Original post by TheExtrovertGod)
    Which is great if you're an employer looking for someone to work in slave conditions, migrants displace locals in poor industry as the locals are less likely to put up with awful working conditions.
    In fact the immigrants come over here and take over many of the jobs that we as 'english' refuse to partake in as we deem ourselves to 'classy'. Many migrants go into cleaning industries and working in factory at anti social hours, something which us as british/english people would not.
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    (Original post by karl pilkington)
    the nazis were not that focused on immigration more antisemitism also Godwin's law
    Maybe that's because they were more interested in conquering the rest of Europe, then racially purifying it.
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    (Original post by 999tigger)
    No it isnt. He makes a very good point, which is who are the English? If you have studies any history, then you will know apart from the Ancient Britains, then the English as you call them are comrpised of successive waves of immigrants. You obviously show no understanding of this.
    no this is nonsense the english are a definable group of people this who idea about a wave of immigrants is only true if you go back a thousand years. The most immigration that took place before 1945 was from Ireland (a country with a very similar culture)
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    Well yes, that's sort of the whole point. America may have seen many jobs go to Mexico and China, and rightly so, if they can't compete with lower costs and higher efficiency. Similarly, the reason why immigrants get low paid/low skilled jobs here is because they are more competitive when it comes to cost and efficiency. The impact of this would be to get America working harder to improve its own efficiency and lower its own costs, as well as getting the British labour pool to work harder to outcompete immigrants.

    It makes the world a more meritocratic and more competitive place. For the world as a whole, this is an economic benefit, because competition incentivises increased efficiency and productivity, and lower cost.

    Of course it doesn't benefit every single person individually. Competition is obviously undesirable to someone who feels he can't keep abreast of it, and wants to be wealthy in excess of the actual value he adds to the world.
    Yeah but why would I care about making other countries richer I only care about my own country. Globalisation and immigration are driving wages down in this country threatening my own prosperity. Also as I already said I am not interested in the financial arguments as much.
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    (Original post by karl pilkington)
    no this is nonsense the english are a definable group of people this who idea about a wave of immigrants is only true if you go back a thousand years. The most immigration that took place before 1945 was from Ireland (a country with a very similar culture)
    Its how the population of the UK grew. The irish arent English are they, that's why they are from Ireland. So its less about nationaliyu with you its more about skin colour or religion?
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    I think every country should be opened up to anyone who wants to go and live or work there, and anyone should be allowed to live anywhere. (But all countries would have to do it, it doesn't work if it's just a few).

    It would be the pinnacle of globalisation, creating a far more economically efficient world and facilitating a stronger interchange of social and cultural ideas and world views, creating further progress on that front too.
    Here is what would happen in that situation. First world people would generally just stay in first world countries, and the third world would migrate into the first world en-masse and absolutely wreck it.
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    (Original post by karl pilkington)
    Yeah but why would I care about making other countries richer I only care about my own country. Globalisation and immigration are driving wages down in this country threatening my own prosperity.
    The problem is, this is a very narrow and short term sort of view. If you only care about your own prosperity or your own country, that's fine (a lot of people do). But then cooperating with other people and other countries for mutual prosperity will actually tend be of more benefit to you overall.

    Look at a very extreme example. Suppose there was a law that said the UK owns the whole world, and every other country in the world has to pay 20% of their GDP to the UK in tax. This money will be distributed amongst UK residents, making them the richest people in the world without having to actually do anything. Furthermore, nobody else from any other country is allowed to come here and share in any of it. Now that sounds like it would be great for the UK, and it might be for a little while. But in the long term it would be terrible. Nobody in the UK would have the incentive to work, and nothing would ever get done. You might have a lot of money, but what would you do with it? What goods and services can you purchase if nobody in the U.K. is bothering to provide them? All that money would be worthless here, and the country would eventually become unmaintained wasteland.

    Or, look at Brexit, the real life example in front of you. Britain hasn't even left the EU yet, and already confidence in the economy takes a dive at every hint that free movement will be compromised. If we restrict immigration it might artificially improve all our wages a bit, but then the price of anything we want to buy will increase, and it's quality will go down. Our bank accounts might have a larger number in it, but in reality we are all worse off.

    If you care about your own prosperity and your own country, the best way to support it is to promote a competitive and meritocratic world environment, and then work hard and cooperate with other people and other countries to keep ahead of the competition. That's what we call an economy of scale.

    Also as I already said I am not interested in the financial arguments as much.
    Maybe not, I'm just talking about them because you asked.
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    People don't like giving ownership to Europeans, even thought it's nothing to do with them. Blacks claim ownership over Africa, music and many other things but nobody cares.
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    The problem is, this is a very narrow and short term sort of view. If you only care about your own prosperity or your own country, that's fine (a lot of people do). But then cooperating with other people and other countries for mutual prosperity will actually tend be of more benefit to you overall.

    Look at a very extreme example. Suppose there was a law that said the UK owns the whole world, and every other country in the world has to pay 20% of their GDP to the UK in tax. This money will be distributed amongst UK residents, making them the richest people in the world without having to actually do anything. Furthermore, nobody else from any other country is allowed to come here and share in any of it. Now that sounds like it would be great for the UK, and it might be for a little while. But in the long term it would be terrible. Nobody in the UK would have the incentive to work, and nothing would ever get done. You might have a lot of money, but what would you do with it? What goods and services can you purchase if nobody in the U.K. is bothering to provide them? All that money would be worthless here, and the country would eventually become unmaintained wasteland.



    Or, look at Brexit, the real life example in front of you. Britain hasn't even left the EU yet, and already confidence in the economy takes a dive at every hint that free movement will be compromised. If we restrict immigration it might artificially improve all our wages a bit, but then the price of anything we want to buy will increase, and it's quality will go down. Our bank accounts might have a larger number in it, but in reality we are all worse off.

    If you care about your own prosperity and your own country, the best way to support it is to promote a competitive and meritocratic world environment, and then work hard and cooperate with other people and other countries to keep ahead of the competition. That's what we call an economy of scale.



    Maybe not, I'm just talking about them because you asked.
    Your example doesn't make any sense if you look at a prosperous country like Japan or Germany they are very hard working and have a high wage manufacturing based economy. Also the economy has recently seen a boost in manufacturing as our exports are more competitive so the Brexit stuff was kind of nonsense. Also your replies are way too long/involved
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    (Original post by KatieOliver99)
    That's not true at all, Immigrants are net contributors in the U.K.
    For some, yes, but many do not make a positive contribution.

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    (Original post by Wōden)
    Here is what would happen in that situation. First world people would generally just stay in first world countries, and the third world would migrate into the first world en-masse and absolutely wreck it.
    I don't think so. If the world essentially became one country where anyone can go to live and work anywhere they like, there would be no such thing as a "first world" country or a "third world" country.

    At the moment, the only reason so many immigrants want to come to first world countries is ultimately because they're clubs with exclusive, restricted access, where they can benefit from earning more money for the same work (due to the lower supply of labour) and then send the money back home where things are cheaper (due to the lower demand for goods and services since people are poorer).

    If we remove those restrictions, there would be ecobomic equalisation across the world, and there would be no reason for everyone to want to flock to this particular island.
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    (Original post by Connor27)
    Can we not have a happy medium where we allow moderate levels of immigration with moderate vetting to keep out any bad eggs?

    Most of you lot are ignorant of the positive economic effects of immigration and just dislike them because they're a different colour or speak a different language. Before you say they take British people's jobs; no they don't, read up on the lump of labour fallacy.

    Debating the alt-right is just as easy as debating the left, educate them on some basic economics.
    They can do, or are the 5 factories I know near me that have NO British labour but used to be major employers now only hire Polish a one off? Including one who made management learn Polish?

    That other places I lived that were holiday areas now had foreign(mostly Polish and a few Romanian)staff, I mean including one large holiday firm that used to run yearly recruitment drive that got thousands of applicants, are you saying the Brits didn't want to work or were not good enough to do things like clean toilets?

    That the social housing in my current town is almost all now foreign people in it is a one off? The very fact the local HA's and council housing had to learn Polish to communicate for that very reason? And all documents are English and Polish?

    That when I went to hospital for a checkup I waited 45 minutes behind a foreign person as they had to get everything translated just to get an appointment was a one off?

    Now I don't mind immigration but the numbers in recent years are crazy, and the knock on effect such as ex council estates and areas of first time homes now being pretty much all Polish, locals call my estate "little Warsaw", and the next town along is "little Poland"

    Whenever I see a chav, teenage or adult on the estate they are Polish, at weekends when I see drunks singing, or shouting they are Polish.

    Overgrown gardens, dumped washing machines/fridges etc all in the Polish gardens.

    It may seem I am specifically getting at the Polish there but thats because they are the main ones around.

    The other side to the "taking jobs" thing is if 400 new jobs are created in the town, and they are taken only by immigrants, outside of money they spend locally what benefit is there? In fact means less homes, more money paid on benefits for the ones that lose out etc.

    Its why numbers alone mean nothing without interpretation.

    So again I don't mind immgiration as such, I don't treat a foreigner different, though I have had arguments with again specifically the Polish ones who claim they only get work as British are lazy (ALL British they are saying) and they only do what Brits dont want, oh and they stupidly call Scotland and its people "England/English"
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    (Original post by Catholic_)
    Blacks claim ownership over Africa, music and many other things but nobody cares.
    And dreadlocks.
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    (Original post by Catholic_)
    People don't like giving ownership to Europeans, even thought it's nothing to do with them. Blacks claim ownership over Africa, music and many other things but nobody cares.
    This is probably true if I understand you right. Black people are considered native to Africa and kind of are. They discriminate against white people in South Africa but that is fine. Countries like China and Japan are allowed to be very racist and nationalistic. However immigration and multiculturalism has been forced upon primarily European countries like Sweden Germany, France and this country. We have to accept it or are seen as 'racist'.
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    I don't think so. If the world essentially became one country where anyone can go to live and work anywhere they like, there would be no such thing as a "first world" country or a "third world" country.
    That's utopia.

    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    If we remove those restrictions, there would be economic equalisation across the world, and there would be no reason for everyone to want to flock to this particular island.
    An "economic equalisation" would concretely mean a massive wealth transfer to Third world countries and we would be much poorer.
 
 
 
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