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Obama's Presidency Vote Watch

  • View Poll Results: How has Barack Obama performed as POTUS?
    Very Well
    751
    40.62%
    Moderately Well
    589
    31.86%
    Neither Well nor Poorly / Don't Know
    241
    13.03%
    Moderately Poorly
    135
    7.30%
    Poorly
    133
    7.19%

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    (Original post by yudothis)
    The two in bold are a joke, right?
    Do you have any evidence to the contrary...?
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    (Original post by jape)
    Do you have any evidence to the contrary...?
    Race relations are visibly worse, but that's a good thing. Finally blacks are standing up for themselves, motivated by a black president, enabled by social media and video evidence of discrimination and racism.

    The second is a complete joke. What does it even mean? Do you actually understand what you wrote and why?
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    Race relations are visibly worse, but that's a good thing. Finally blacks are standing up for themselves, motivated by a black president, enabled by social media and video evidence of discrimination and racism.
    This is laughably stupid. What 2008 injustices were 2008 black people standing up against? Friendly relationships with white people? Equal treatment under the law? Affirmative Action?

    But "police brutality is a racial issue". No, it isn't. The myth of cops just hunting black kids for sport is so astronomically vapid it doesn't even bear rebuttal, a quick run-through of the police shootings we've all heard about since Trayvon Martin will find you a total of about four that were unjustified. Add to that the fact that minority officers shoot minorities more often that white officers, and you have a narrative which is total horseshit.

    "Deteriorating race relations is a good thing" is almost unintelligibly dumb.

    The second is a complete joke. What does it even mean? Do you actually understand what you wrote and why?
    It means that the recovery from the Great Recession was exceptionally slow and weak, moreso than the recovery of the US from any economic downturn up to the Roosevelt Depression. It's a fairly simple statement.
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    (Original post by jape)
    This is laughably stupid. What 2008 injustices were 2008 black people standing up against? Friendly relationships with white people? Equal treatment under the law? Affirmative Action?

    But "police brutality is a racial issue". No, it isn't. The myth of cops just hunting black kids for sport is so astronomically vapid it doesn't even bear rebuttal, a quick run-through of the police shootings we've all heard about since Trayvon Martin will find you a total of about four that were unjustified. Add to that the fact that minority officers shoot minorities more often that white officers, and you have a narrative which is total horseshit.

    "Deteriorating race relations is a good thing" is almost unintelligibly dumb.



    It means that the recovery from the Great Recession was exceptionally slow and weak, moreso than the recovery of the US from any economic downturn up to the Roosevelt Depression. It's a fairly simple statement.
    You think there were friendly relationships with white people before? You think it's just about police brutality? What are the chances of being stopped by the police when you are black and when you are white? Do you honestly believe there is no racism in the US? What do you say to the studies that have proven that simply having a black name will get you less job interviews?

    "I don't see a problem so there can't be a problem".

    So you think it is acceptable to make a blanket comparison between two recessions and conclude "oh, recovery was slower there than there, clearly the presidents fault". What a wonderful way to come up with statements. Did you know in the 20s Germany had hyperinflation and in the 30s the economy suddenly boomed?
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    You think there were friendly relationships with white people before? You think it's just about police brutality? What are the chances of being stopped by the police when you are black and when you are white? Do you honestly believe there is no racism in the US? What do you say to the studies that have proven that simply having a black name will get you less job interviews?

    "I don't see a problem so there can't be a problem".

    So you think it is acceptable to make a blanket comparison between two recessions and conclude "oh, recovery was slower there than there, clearly the presidents fault". What a wonderful way to come up with statements. Did you know in the 20s Germany had hyperinflation and in the 30s the economy suddenly boomed?
    Nobody says "no racism", that would be ridiculous. "No systemic or widespread racism" is correct though.

    Stop and search statistics from when NYC did S&S were undersearched by police when you compare how often each demographic was searched compared to the crime rates of each demographic.

    "Black" names isn't a racial thing, it's a cultural thing. And yes, the two are different. I'm more likely to give a job doing accounting to someone with a normal name (John, Alicia, Harry, Emily) than I am someone with a proposterous name like Shaniqua or LaTrell. Because, regardless of race, someone whose kid is named John or Alicia will have been raised by someone who cares about socialising their kid into broader society.

    Katie Hopkins got a lot of crap for this, and she takes it to a ridiculous degree, but the principle is basically right. I wouldn't hire someone named Chardonnay or Destiny either.
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    And on the economy, I do think his response and its effect is pertinent. You evidently don't, and that's a legitimate area of disagreement so whatever.
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    Very poor
    ACA is going
    Trouble in Iraq occurred after troops left
    The negatives you said plus many more
    Also more and more people were losing hope during his presidency and it lead to the highest suicide rate for 30 years
    The troops in Iraq were already leaving under the Bush administration, he was just honouring international agreements already in place for that one.
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    (Original post by Gwilym101)
    The troops in Iraq were already leaving under the Bush administration, he was just honouring international agreements already in place for that one.
    If someone is giving Obama credit for the withdrawal like the op is then he can also be criticised for ot
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    (Original post by jape)
    Nobody says "no racism", that would be ridiculous. "No systemic or widespread racism" is correct though.

    Stop and search statistics from when NYC did S&S were undersearched by police when you compare how often each demographic was searched compared to the crime rates of each demographic.

    "Black" names isn't a racial thing, it's a cultural thing. And yes, the two are different. I'm more likely to give a job doing accounting to someone with a normal name (John, Alicia, Harry, Emily) than I am someone with a proposterous name like Shaniqua or LaTrell. Because, regardless of race, someone whose kid is named John or Alicia will have been raised by someone who cares about socialising their kid into broader society.

    Katie Hopkins got a lot of crap for this, and she takes it to a ridiculous degree, but the principle is basically right. I wouldn't hire someone named Chardonnay or Destiny either.
    So you are a racist but of yourself don't think you are, justifying it to yourself. Very much like Brexit/Trump voters. Bye now, I won't enable you.
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    So you are a racist but of yourself don't think you are, justifying it to yourself. Very much like Brexit/Trump voters. Bye now, I won't enable you.
    Well, thanks for the exchange. It was illuminating.
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    (Original post by oldercon1953)
    The reason the civil rights "movement" seems stalled is not because of poor tactics but because there is no movement. The validity of the civil rights movement of the 60's was unquestioned because it was supported by virtualy every black person in the country. The inequality the blacks were having to endure was plain to anyone. Tens of millions of whites were sympathetic. Compare that to today. A handful of Anarchists calling themselves B.L.M.. They have no spokesman because no Black leader wants to be identified that closely to them.
    The truth has finally sunk in that the biggest problem the black community has to overcome is the break-up of the family. Advocating for the nuclear family doesn't bring a lot of fame so it's probably going to be a while before a leader emerges who can bring concrete changes. Obama had a chance but he blew it.
    I also think the issue is with the original Black rights movement you had laws written against them, they clearly had less rights so it was actually a movement where as BLM isn't challenging any laws but rather its challenging society and institutions to change their behaviour which is far more complex. I would say black people and white people have equal rights but do they get the same treatment from the police, courts, employers, etc., id say probably not. So in other words they're challenging an invisible force, the original rights movement knew what needed changing, they should be able to use the same bus seat, they should be able to get the same education, they should be entitled to the same rate of pay. I'm not sure if you get my point but it's like there's nothing written to say police should treat black people worse than white people.

    I also think BLM has became too toxic thanks to social media and I'm glad Obama didn't get too into it. I don't remember Obama campaigning much for racial inequality, it's entrenched and unwritten so it's hard to tackle.
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    (Original post by jape)
    There's a lot here, but I'll address what I can. I think the fact that Russia felt able to move into Syria and prop up Bashar Assad is proof that there was already a behind-the-scenes failure with his foreign policy. Race relations have actually been pretty good, up until Obama's second term. Courtesy of Gallup:



    Leaving Iraq early was an immeasurably huge ****-up and Trump is right to say that Obama effectively created ISIS. Opening up to Cuba is a terrible policy from my point-of-view and from the points-of-view of the Cubans who fled Castro terror and set up shop in Florida.
    The entire idea of funding the rebels was disastrous and I won't even go into Libya. Those acts make him no better than George bush sadly. And you can expect that chart to fall even more under trump

    Yep, he just had to stay a little longer and Have some sort of contingency plan ready. It was a nasty transition for the Iraqi government and destabilised them. Trump is also right that America has been funding terrorism especially in Syria. As for Cuba it's a step in the right direction for America to regain influence especially with elections (probably undemocratic)/a new leader due there next year it'd be helpful if America could have communications
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    (Original post by StrawbAri)
    This wasn't his fault though. The gun lobby fought him to a standstill
    Your signature applies well here ;_;
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    Not very well, but reasonably well considering the restrictions placed on him. If anything it was just refreshing to have a down to earth, likeable character in that position. For that he'll be remembered fondly, regardless of what he didn't manage to achieve.
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    "Negatives
    * Foreign Policy ineptitude led to more instability in the Arab World
    * Race relations deteriorated and political polarization rose
    * Slowest economic recovery since 1930s.
    * Numerous incidents of government malpractice"

    They outweigh killing a terrorist that was largely out of action who was easily replaced as well as breaking international law in doing so (unarmed person)

    Guantanamo Bay to be closed... hmm...

    Guns left, right and centre... hmm...

    Memes and 'cool guy' sentiments don't make a good President.

    Verdict 'poorly'
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    (Original post by StrawbAri)
    This wasn't his fault though. The gun lobby fought him to a standstill
    Hence I added "not for the want of trying", but it's still at least somewhat his fault because he could have mobilised the public better and put more pressure on those who opposed reform.
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    He has no real positive lasting legacy, when the "things aren't too bad at the moment" effect he will plumet through the rankings to maybe middle of the second quartile. His lasting legacy (at least for the next 10-20 years) is going to be the mess that is the middle east

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    He has no real positive lasting legacy, when the "things aren't too bad at the moment" effect he will plumet through the rankings to maybe middle of the second quartile. His lasting legacy (at least for the next 10-20 years) is going to be the mess that is the middle east

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    The unemployment rate is pretty good now. Obamacare, while getting stripped, will remain in key parts and that is a huge step for the future to build on. People say foreign relations are bad but he is the most popular US president in a long time.
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    Overall, I'd say he's done moderately well. His approval ratings are at an unprecedented high for a President at the end of his second term.

    Positives:

    By avoiding growth-killing austerity, Obama managed to preside over a strong economic recovery, given that it was the worst recession since the Great Depression. He should have increased government spending even further, ideally.

    Refusing to engage in air strikes against the Syrian government, or a ground invasion, despite the cries from the foreign policy establishment. His guiding foreign policy principle, "don't do stupid stuff", was sound, and he knew that without a plan for the aftermath, intervening would be wrong.

    Gay marriage.

    Paris climate deal and bilateral climate deal with China.

    Better relations with Iran and Cuba.

    Allowing the resolution on Israel to pass at the UN Security Council.

    Obamacare: despite its flaws, it's better than what was in place before and means that the Republicans are probably going to have to insure everyone who is currently insured if they try and replace it.

    Job-creation and low unemployment, with median wage growth being seen in the past couple of years.

    Explaining to certain people why using the phrase "radical Islamic terrorism" is counter-productive, and being wary of public backlashes in general in response to language used. Also, recognizing that climate change is a bigger threat than terrorism.

    Airstrikes against ISIS in Iraq and Syria, working with the Iraqi government and the Kurds respectively.

    Being critical of identity politics and respecting the odd Trump voter who showed up at his rallies.

    Promoting evidence-based policymaking.

    Being intelligent and well-read, for example being informed on the dangers of Artificial Intelligence put forward by the Oxford philosopher Nick Bostrom and holding a symposium at the White House on the dangers of AI. His private views on many issues were sensible, in fact.

    Openly talking about the fact that it's hard for atheists to progress in politics (though I suspect he's a closet atheist).

    Improving the image of the United States across the world - compared with what it was like under Bush.

    Negatives

    The Libyan intervention, which was mainly the fault of the UK and France, and which surprisingly for a sitting US President he has said he regrets.

    Arming the Syrian rebels which simply fueled the conflict.

    Drone strikes, particularly the so-called signature strikes. They were probably wrong on a case-by-case basis; I'm not opposed to drone strikes in principle.

    Supporting the overthrow of the democratically elected President of Ukraine, which fueled tensions with Russia.
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    (Original post by zayn008)
    I also think the issue is with the original Black rights movement you had laws written against them, they clearly had less rights so it was actually a movement where as BLM isn't challenging any laws but rather its challenging society and institutions to change their behaviour which is far more complex. I would say black people and white people have equal rights but do they get the same treatment from the police, courts, employers, etc., id say probably not. So in other words they're challenging an invisible force, the original rights movement knew what needed changing, they should be able to use the same bus seat, they should be able to get the same education, they should be entitled to the same rate of pay. I'm not sure if you get my point but it's like there's nothing written to say police should treat black people worse than white people.

    I also think BLM has became too toxic thanks to social media and I'm glad Obama didn't get too into it. I don't remember Obama campaigning much for racial inequality, it's entrenched and unwritten so it's hard to tackle.
    I a.gree with all you've said.
    As far as changing peoples attitudes and behavior. Some are willing, even eager to change even if just to appear progressive or enlightened. Some will take their attitudes and prejudices to their graves. To the vast majority in the middle who are busy living their lives, change does come but it doesn't come overnight. You don't have to be a philosopher to grasp this simple truth but it is missed entirely by the BLM crowd. You can't bang people, who don't think of themselves as racist, over the head and call them racist and expect to change anyones behavior. That's the main difference in the BLM crowd and the civil rights movement in the 60s-70's. No patience. Only attitude.

    Blacks and the police; Of course blacks are incarcerated much more than whites. They commit about 70% more street level crime and are much more likely to carry a gun while committing a crime. Why do they carry guns even when they don't have to? Because it's expected of them. You can blame that almost entirely on rap music. Remember that probably 90% of black teenage youth grow up in a home without a father. No role model. Rap music tells them everything they need to know about being a gangster and carrying a gun is number one on the list. This lack of an authority figure also helps th explain why a lot of blacks don't deal well with the police. They don't learn that authority figures help you as well as discipline etc.
 
 
 
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