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    (Original post by AOG1)
    OK I get that having the option is nice to have, and it is easy... But for me that is a huge concern. If any UK citizen can live in Europe I would first of argue is discriminatory against non-EU persons, as any old bloke from UK could move to Spain, but a professional from Asia or Africa has less rights, fair?
    Secondly the agreement is reciprocal, a simple points based immigration system will significantly reduce crime and terror as we can deny access for bad people from EU countries, common sense if you ask me?
    It us a customs union/ club. You suddenly becoming concerned about those outside the EU is disingenuous. You asked why would anyone want to be in and not is it unfair to everyone else. Asia and Africa have their own custom unions. Yes it is fair because givernments negotiate trade deals in order to favour the country and its citizens.

    You are under the delusion that crime and terror is as a result of immigration. Terror has come almost exlcusively from homegrown terrorists. People being radicalised on the internet. Explain why it will significantly reduce crime? In soem regards it could make it harder to fight international crime because wouldnt have things like the European wide arrest warrant.

    We can already check who comes and goes.
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    (Original post by joe cooley)
    The EU is the best way to bypass the democratic will of the people,and thats why a lot of you like it.

    Simple as that.
    Only totalitarian regimes talk about the 'Will of the People'.

    Simple as that.
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    And all those voting Brexit did assume that the NHS would get it, not unreasonably.
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    (Original post by Pulse.)
    Your a racist.

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    Nope. Let's hear him out first.
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    (Original post by LilLilly)
    Hmm you mean like the £350m a week that was going to go towards the NHS? Forgive me if I'm skeptical about the likelihood of that actually happening. I think it's far more likely they'll just raise tuition fees... again.
    We are charging for stuff that used to be free, because we are a weak nation struggling to run its own institutions and services. Gone are the days of prosperity when education, NHS, and other stuff used to be free, and housing/transport/cost of living used to be dirt cheap. Gosh I wish I lived in them days.

    If Europe (that the right wing claims to be f*cked up), is able to provide free and high quality education, dirt cheap travel and housing, why can't we?
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    (Original post by ThePricklyOne)
    Not naivety but lied to, because those who voted were told the money's coming to the NHS. So where is it?



    It's not a vague claim when these areas have asked the govt to step in and replace the EU funding.



    You will accept them because UK doesn't have the brains to keep them out. As I 've already pointed out - nothing to do with the EU.



    You're not good at Maths are you? We paid once, along with all the countries who are part of the EU. Why should France pay twice to process the UK's illegal immigrants? Hence that Le Torquet Treaty.. where we pay them to do what we should be doing...processing OUR OWN illegals.





    You asked for reasons - I gave it. So sorry your tiny brain can't process it and you resort to telling people to shut up.



    You don't care about folks outside the EU do don't use them as an excuse. After all, you're the who don't want these folks in the UK.

    Study abroad should available to those able to go. Otherwise its like saying I haven't got an education, so neither should you, the rest of the UK. It's a race to the bottom to be the dumbest in the world. All the while the job market is changing to require more and more skill.



    Trump will care about US interests & we will be the back of the queue. Big powers only negotiate with other big powers. UK is no longer a big power.

    Russia wants EU because it benefited hugely from having Eastern Europe under its influence back in the Cold War. Which is why its trying to take back chunks of the Ukraine and threatening Norway.




    I would agree with you if we are living in 100 BC before the rise of the big power nations such as the Roman Empire. But we now live in a globalized world and everything we do is affected by stuff happening in other parts of the world. Oil prices in the M.East, and global price of gold affect everything in UK.

    Big countries will always wield big influence. Treaties are made globally and by big powers. Small powers don't get a look in. Theresa May and Nigel Farage knows this, otherwise, why else would they try so hard to get in the hot tub with Trump?
    You really do not understand how powerful We are, sure we are no longer the biggest empire and the most powerful but we are a world power, we have massive influence
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    (Original post by ThePricklyOne)
    Not naivety but lied to, because those who voted were told the money's coming to the NHS. So where is it?



    It's not a vague claim when these areas have asked the govt to step in and replace the EU funding.



    You will accept them because UK doesn't have the brains to keep them out. As I 've already pointed out - nothing to do with the EU.



    You're not good at Maths are you? We paid once, along with all the countries who are part of the EU. Why should France pay twice to process the UK's illegal immigrants? Hence that Le Torquet Treaty.. where we pay them to do what we should be doing...processing OUR OWN illegals.





    You asked for reasons - I gave it. So sorry your tiny brain can't process it and you resort to telling people to shut up.



    You don't care about folks outside the EU do don't use them as an excuse. After all, you're the who don't want these folks in the UK.

    Study abroad should available to those able to go. Otherwise its like saying I haven't got an education, so neither should you, the rest of the UK. It's a race to the bottom to be the dumbest in the world. All the while the job market is changing to require more and more skill.



    Trump will care about US interests & we will be the back of the queue. Big powers only negotiate with other big powers. UK is no longer a big power.

    Russia wants EU because it benefited hugely from having Eastern Europe under its influence back in the Cold War. Which is why its trying to take back chunks of the Ukraine and threatening Norway.




    I would agree with you if we are living in 100 BC before the rise of the big power nations such as the Roman Empire. But we now live in a globalized world and everything we do is affected by stuff happening in other parts of the world. Oil prices in the M.East, and global price of gold affect everything in UK.

    Big countries will always wield big influence. Treaties are made globally and by big powers. Small powers don't get a look in. Theresa May and Nigel Farage knows this, otherwise, why else would they try so hard to get in the hot tub with Trump?
    Look I've already got a headache, my point about paying twice is that we pay more net than we take, so tax payers fund the NHS and the EU payment, we are paying for EU citizens to use our services, you cannot deny that! Paying twice in terms of opportunity cost for UK citizens whose service is diminished consequently. I care about non-EU citizens as much as I care about EU citizens, I believe in equality, the qualities and skills of persons moving into UK should be more important than the country they are leaving. The money for NHS hasn't been provided yet as we are still paying in... once we leave that money spent will probably be used to fund activities EU paid for.
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    (Original post by AOG1)
    Look I've already got a headache, my point about paying twice is that we pay more net than we take, so tax payers fund the NHS and the EU payment, we are paying for EU citizens to use our services, you cannot deny that! Paying twice in terms of opportunity cost for UK citizens whose service is diminished consequently. I care about non-EU citizens as much as I care about EU citizens, I believe in equality, the qualities and skills of persons moving into UK should be more important than the country they are leaving. The money for NHS hasn't been provided yet as we are still paying in... once we leave that money spent will probably be used to fund activities EU paid for.
    OK. if we leave the EU, will we return the UK to a time where everything's free or dirt cheap?

    Like back in the 80s when you could leave school at 15 without doing exams and still walk into a job?

    When you could be an investment banker with just A Levels?

    Where there are apprenticeships for any job funded by the govt/businesses?

    Where anyone could progress to a job that would allow them to save up to buy a house?

    When we had fully funded libraries, schools, universities, and NHS - all this is free for all citizens in the UK?

    If we could go back to that time, then I agree with you we don't need the EU.
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    (Original post by AOG1)
    Look I've already got a headache, my point about paying twice is that we pay more net than we take, so tax payers fund the NHS and the EU payment, we are paying for EU citizens to use our services, you cannot deny that! Paying twice in terms of opportunity cost for UK citizens whose service is diminished consequently. I care about non-EU citizens as much as I care about EU citizens, I believe in equality, the qualities and skills of persons moving into UK should be more important than the country they are leaving. The money for NHS hasn't been provided yet as we are still paying in... once we leave that money spent will probably be used to fund activities EU paid for.
    You can deny it because it isn't true. Anyone who's working here and pays taxes has a right to use public services, otherwise if they use the NHS though EHIC their govt pays for it.

    EU migrants also tend to be young so are less likely to use the NHS, compared to the British pensioners on the Costas for example.

    Pressures on UK infrastructure and services are down to our own govt's mismanagement not immigrants.
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    (Original post by SHallowvale)
    UK citizens are guaranteed more rights being in the EU than being out. For example, the rights to work, study and live in any EU country.
    Most of the people I've heard make that argument would be able to qualify for a skill based visa anyway.
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    (Original post by ThePricklyOne)
    OK. if we leave the EU, will we return the UK to a time where everything's free or dirt cheap?

    Like back in the 80s when you could leave school at 15 without doing exams and still walk into a job?

    When you could be an investment banker with just A Levels?

    Where there are apprenticeships for any job funded by the govt/businesses?

    Where anyone could progress to a job that would allow them to save up to buy a house?

    When we had fully funded libraries, schools, universities, and NHS - all this is free for all citizens in the UK?

    If we could go back to that time, then I agree with you we don't need the EU.
    They are all unrealistic aims, more supply of labour combined with comparatively less jobs becoming available means the firms want highest qualifications.
    A lot of issues you are talking about come from the EU more people (EU open door) lack of funds (EU payments). Wage compression from more labour, more expensive houses from much greater demand... do you really not see the connection?
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    (Original post by BigYoSpeck)
    Most of the people I've heard make that argument would be able to qualify for a skill based visa anyway.
    I would qualify for a skill based visa. I am eligible to emigrate to Australia, for example.

    But in the post-Brexit EU, that would involve a huge amount of red tape (repeat for each country of the EU I want to work in).

    I have a mate who lives in the UK, pays UK taxes but works in both UK and Europe. Post Brexit, she will be able to only work in the UK or one country in Europe. If she wants to carry on as she is now, she'll need a visa for each EU country she works in. Her employers in each country will need to apply for a permit for her to work for them. That's not including the paperwork that needs doing so she either pays tax in EU or pay in the UK. That's a lot of red tape.

    After Brexit, my mate will be better off moving to EU to live permanently than to stay in the UK. So UK will lose her taxes.
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    You can deny it because it isn't true. Anyone who's working here and pays taxes has a right to use public services, otherwise if they use the NHS though EHIC their govt pays for it.

    EU migrants also tend to be young so are less likely to use the NHS, compared to the British pensioners on the Costas for example.

    Pressures on UK infrastructure and services are down to our own govt's mismanagement not immigrants.
    The person was talking about using when on holiday so no taxes paid.
    Couldn't prepare for services because we had net migration increase by 10x in past 10-15 years which is not sustainable, I agree with point about British pensioners, cannot verify but assume still on British state pension, so not as big of a cost to Spain?
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    (Original post by AOG1)
    OK I get that having the option is nice to have, and it is easy... But for me that is a huge concern. If any UK citizen can live in Europe I would first of argue is discriminatory against non-EU persons, as any old bloke from UK could move to Spain, but a professional from Asia or Africa has less rights, fair?
    Secondly the agreement is reciprocal, a simple points based immigration system will significantly reduce crime and terror as we can deny access for bad people from EU countries, common sense if you ask me?
    Whether or not you consider it 'fair' is irrelevant. It's still a reason why someone people want us to remain.

    You will have 'unfairness' under any system. In the existing system, anyone from, say, Manchester can move to and work in London whereas ''a professional from Asia or Africa'' could not. That's not fair either.

    How much crime and terror has come from bad people from EU countries moving to the UK?
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    (Original post by SHallowvale)
    Whether or not you consider it 'fair' is irrelevant. It's still a reason why someone people want us to remain.

    You will have 'unfairness' under any system. In the existing system, anyone from, say, Manchester can move to and work in London whereas ''a professional from Asia or Africa'' could not. That's not fair either.

    How much crime and terror has come from bad people from EU countries moving to the UK?
    That is completely different as within country, there is no immigration there. My point was that someone with no qualifications from EU country can move to UK when skilled non-EU worker may not be able to, not good for economy and also socially.
    I was more concerned with the migrant crisis, scenes in Sweden and Cologne where women were raped, and before you start saying 'they're not EU' they are because Merkel called for an open door to migrants, and not all but some are causing crime. Free movement of people means terrorism can spread more easily.
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    (Original post by AOG1)
    That is completely different as within country, there is no immigration there. My point was that someone with no qualifications from EU country can move to UK when skilled non-EU worker may not be able to, not good for economy and also socially.
    I was more concerned with the migrant crisis, scenes in Sweden and Cologne where women were raped, and before you start saying 'they're not EU' they are because Merkel called for an open door to migrants, and not all but some are causing crime. Free movement of people means terrorism can spread more easily.
    And someone with no qualifications can move from one part of the country to the other. It's not good for the economy of, say, Cornwall if it's flooded with unskilled labour from the rest of England. It's not fair on the locals either. Why don't they get a say in who comes into Cornwall? Why isn't their a referendum on Cornish Independence?

    Why shouldn't it be different within a country? The distinction you're making is arbitrary.

    From what I am aware of recent terrorist attacks in Europe, most of them have been committed by citizens and not asylum seekers/refugees. It's the Schengen Area, amongst other things of course, that has allowed people to enter Europe. We're not a part of this.
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    (Original post by AOG1)
    A lot of issues you are talking about come from the EU more people (EU open door) lack of funds (EU payments). Wage compression from more labour, more expensive houses from much greater demand... do you really not see the connection?
    The problem with most of your arguments is that they only take into account one side of the coin. What about the 1.2m British born people living in other EU member states (30,000 of which claiming benefits in those countries) for example? Only 2.5% of EU migrants in Britain claim state benefits, the vast majority of them are working and contributing towards our economy. It is well documented that EU migrants bring vastly more money into Britain than they cost the nation. Similarly, whilst I don't dispute the £8.5 billion net contribution for Britain's annual membership of the EU, access to the single market has been estimated to boost GDP by up to 5%, which considering Britain's GDP is around £2.7 trillion, makes the membership fee more than worth it just for continued access to it.
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    (Original post by AOG1)
    The person was talking about using when on holiday so no taxes paid.
    Couldn't prepare for services because we had net migration increase by 10x in past 10-15 years which is not sustainable, I agree with point about British pensioners, cannot verify but assume still on British state pension, so not as big of a cost to Spain?
    They get access to the Spanish NHS as residents the same as a local, the point I was making is that it's not a one way street. And If someone's used the NHS here while on holiday they'd have to have gone through EHIC which would be reimbursed by their govt, unless it was an emergency but I'd hardly begrudge providing that care to anyone who needs it.

    The ability to provide services is predominantly down to money not the size of the current population. If all migration ceased tomorrow we'd still have the same problems as we've got a govt who prioritise tax cuts for people who don't need them over public services. Migrants and people on benefits just make a good scapegoats.
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    (Original post by ThePricklyOne)
    Only totalitarian regimes talk about the 'Will of the People'.

    Simple as that.
    They may well do, and thats why i included the word democratic.

    Which, for some reason you chose to ignore.
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    (Original post by AOG1)
    They are all unrealistic aims, more supply of labour combined with comparatively less jobs becoming available means the firms want highest qualifications.
    A lot of issues you are talking about come from the EU more people (EU open door) lack of funds (EU payments). Wage compression from more labour, more expensive houses from much greater demand... do you really not see the connection?
    The connection is not the EU payments. That's just a p*ss in the ocean of the what the UK pays elsewhere (to private sector and rich folk), and taxes it won't collect (from Amazon, Google, Uber and other foreign businesses).
 
 
 
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