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    (Original post by midnightice)
    Look, access to essentially reflects our trading arrangements at the moment.
    No, that would be 'member of'. 'Access to' the single market describes the position of just about every country in the world. It isn't a useful term at all.

    We will be seeking full and broadest access to the single market, which is what we have as of now. Non-tariff barriers are more important than tariff barriers, especially for supply chains across the continent relying on exports to the UK. If the EU wants to be rational about this, and aim for a mutually advantageous strategic partnership between themselves and the UK, then they will ensure such barriers remain minimal.

    The EU has a plethora of problems facing itself right now. The last thing it should do is raise trade barriers with its largest export market in the world. Fair enough if they do so to make a spiteful political point, and I wouldn't put it past them given their irrationality, but they will be digging their own grave.

    I have been inclined to believe that this rhetoric surrounding FoM being intrinsically linked to free trade has been their reluctance to accept the result and their attempt to scare us into reconsideration. Faced with the reality of economic loss across the continent if they do not agree a comprehensive FTA with us, they should gradually come to their senses, but, again, dogma will probably convolute this. They will not be helping themselves.
    In other words, we almost certainly won't achieve the mythical 'tariff free trade and full border control' deal that the leavers said we would, but this is in spite of the best efforts of our brave and noble politicians and the EU are nothing but big meanies cutting off their nose to spite their face.

    In reality, it was never really on the cards. FoM and free trade within the single market are, and always have been, inseparable from one another. It is a fundamental principle of the EU and there can be no exceptions. We all knew this, really. The suggestion that we could have one without the other was just another of the many lies pedaled by the leave campaign.
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    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    Very happy with the announcement that we will be leaving the single market.
    Im glad that we will be stopping large amounts of money given to EU and instead spending on our own priorities. I believe that NHS and other UK services shall recover as a result. Very happy indeed.
    Mate how are you still clinging to that pipedream about more funds for the NHS?

    It ain't happening.
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    Hard brexit means Hard brexit.
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    No, that would be 'member of'. 'Access to' the single market describes the position of just about every country in the world. It isn't a useful term at all.



    In other words, we almost certainly won't achieve the mythical 'tariff free trade and full border control' deal that the leavers said we would, but this is in spite of the best efforts of our brave and noble politicians and the EU are nothing but big meanies cutting off their nose to spite their face.

    In reality, it was never really on the cards. FoM and free trade within the single market are, and always have been, inseparable from one another. It is a fundamental principle of the EU and there can be no exceptions. We all knew this, really. The suggestion that we could have one without the other was just another of the many lies pedaled by the leave campaign.
    No, it wouldn't. Aside from services, our trading arrangements are near enough identical and as free as that of CETA and the Swiss EFTA deal. You underestimate, or deliberately forget, that we have substantial bargaining chips to secure border control whilst mimicking a CETA+ arrangement, most prominently the City of London. Watch the Eurozone obliterate itself if it doesn't secure access to it.

    By the way, Liechtenstein are full members of the single market (EEA) but do not participate in FoM, so your argument about the 'fundamental principal' is rubbish, just dogmatic rhetoric. Declining a comprehensive FTA agreement with their most important export market over fake 'principals' would be ridiculous. The EU doesn't have to do this out of 'friendliness', it has to do it out of sheer survival instinct.
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    (Original post by jape)
    How do you even fit yourself that far up your own ****?
    He's a German immigrant although he has been working here for a while so I dont see what he has to worry about
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    You want to know how it affects me? Well for starters, Brexit is going to be absolutely crippling for scientific research into UK, the career I want to go into. This country's total lack of interest in helping young people makes my future prospects depressing enough without giving my chosen career a metaphorical kick in the groin. There are other countries in the world that have genuine respect for young people and those involved in research.
    you are obviously exaggerating. the cut to spending with probably be negligible. the UK will have enough money to fund it independently and if it is so important then I don't see why our own state wouldn't fund it without the EU.
    also, I find your attitude regarding the EU pretty egotistical;
    "what's in it for me?" is what you're saying.
    I thought you were left wing, not right wing?
    think a bit more collectively then

    I've listened to democracy in this country. This country's democratic consensus appears to be one of anti-intellectualism where somebody's uninformed opinion is just as valued as the views of the experts, who have been censored by being branded as the 'filthy elite', whilst the genuine elite are continuously being given more and more power.
    let me ask you: how much further transfer of power to the EU is enough for us? how much of our sovereignty ought to be allocated abroad to the EU? are you really saying that the arrangement today (while we're still inside) is good? or are you saying that by pure chance we happen to be in the most ideal situation right now? you seem to be thinking "oh these anti-intellectuals, they hate the elites even if they have more knowledge" (etc) but really surely you understand that the fact that transferring more and more power to the EU means that, whether or not the national economy technically improves inside the EU (which is actually quite doubtful consider the fact that protectionism is bad economically) still doesn't mean that the people themselves overall aren't feel the effect of that? you might say immigration (as an example) improves our economy but that's not taking into account all of the negative effects.

    It's too stupid for me, I've had enough - this referendum is just the tip of the iceberg. I feel absolutely no connection to the prevailing xenophobic views in this country. You can ridicule it as much as you want, but I don't feel welcome here and my European parent who has lived here for decades certainly doesn't.
    I'm sorry but if you jam-pack immigrants into a relatively small nation, xenophobia is only going to get worse. isn't it. "rubbing the right's face in diversity" didn't help. it just meant that the people got a taste of the negative effects of it. you are living in a fantasy world to think that we actually better from national disintegration (which is literally what it is) or mass migration. it makes people more alienated from each other. it makes people less connected to their fellow citizens. if you stimulate the growth of foreign cultures inside a nation, the idea of "nation" diminishes. parallel communities and de facto segregation only makes things like grooming gangs and "no go areas" worse. there isn't anything wrong with immigration. mass migration, however, is problematic. it is whoring a nation out for a cheap buck. and only in a very limited sense as well seeing as wages go down via mass migration. the best way to improve international relations at the local level is to reduce migration to more manageable levels. if you push people into each other against their will, that's when you'll get more conflict. that's why, for instance, there were wars in europe only 20 years ago. forcing very different communities into one state without any kind of commonality is just asking for disaster. we are seeing that on a smaller level. forcing nations to compose their policies as a collective is going to strengthen divisions and arguments, and the EU is a great example of this. for instance, why would we have ever had a problem with poland until the mid 2000s? I mean, they send *huge* numbers of immigrants here yet they don't accept any "refugees"? and what about the fact that germany are allowed in millions of undocumented migrants who will now travel to the UK (not all of them but certainly a lot eventually)? why do you think the EU's format of collective decision making is going to be good for anybody? I mean, think also about greece - why is it a good thing for relations that we bail them out only for them to **** up *again*? seems terribly inconsiderate of them towards us. it's almost like...they don't consider us a common partner inside this structure...oh wait, because the common structure is fictitious! there is no european demos!

    I'm not trying to overturn democracy. I'm saying that the democratic decision is utterly moronic and I don't want to have to suffer just because the British population appears to have forgotten the purpose of the organ between their ears.
    I'm not saying you can't criticise the democratic decision but you aren't even really offering a critique

    Could you please give me one reason why I shouldn't leave given that my future prospects would be significantly better elsewhere?
    if you think your future prospects are better off elsewhere then by all means leave, but that is kind of brattish, isn't it. how about be a little more patriotic? don't you think your collective needs you, "comrade"? this all seems very egotistical and right wing, like I said.
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    (Original post by shawn_o1)
    "There can be no democractic choice against the European treaties." That is the quote by one Jean-Claude Juncker which pretty much sums up the EU in many people's eyes right now.
    Better leave the UN and its undemocratic UDHR too.
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    Little-Englanders can have their country back whilst the rest of the world leaves them behind. I've never been so relieved to have dual-citizenship.
    Ooo which other EU country are you a citizen of?
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    Yes we're finally leaving, very excited to hear this
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    (Original post by shawn_o1)
    The UK will not become Zimbabwe.
    Erm?
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Better leave the UN and its undemocratic UDHR too.
    the UN isn't sovereign over us like the EU technically is though; we are in it for our own interests and clearly our interests are not threatened by our loose association with other UN members. our interests within the EU however are obviously not being advanced. so there's another difference.
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    Mate how are you still clinging to that pipedream about more funds for the NHS?

    It ain't happening.
    The NHS doesn't need more funds as such. It needs less managers and more staff nurses. It also needs to be made more financially aware when it comes down to non-EU patients particularly those who come here specifically to use our hospital facilities. This is a prime example - http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...350000-9631294

    What is worrying is that information received from the NHS shows that 3066 mothers flew into the UK specifically to have babies in 2015/16. That's just babies. Just think how many others flew into the UK for operations that they should have paid for.

    This is why there are waiting lists. This is why the NHS is in a mess.
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    (Original post by midnightice)
    No, it wouldn't. Aside from services, our trading arrangements are near enough identical and as free as that of CETA and the Swiss EFTA deal. You underestimate, or deliberately forget, that we have substantial bargaining chips to secure border control whilst mimicking a CETA+ arrangement, most prominently the City of London. Watch the Eurozone obliterate itself if it doesn't secure access to it.
    I don't know what your point is. As of now, we are a 'member of' the single market. Ergo, 'member of' accurately describes our relationship to the single market. The far vaguer 'access to' is descriptively useless.

    By the way, Liechtenstein are full members of the single market (EEA) but do not participate in FoM, so your argument about the 'fundamental principal' is rubbish, just dogmatic rhetoric. Declining a comprehensive FTA agreement with their most important export market over fake 'principals' would be ridiculous. The EU doesn't have to do this out of 'friendliness', it has to do it out of sheer survival instinct.
    Not quite true. The EEA has provisions to allow restriction of movement in extreme cases, and Liechtenstein invokes those provisions with the permission of the EEA Council. Believing the EU would allow us to do the same is nothing but wishful thinking and, in any case, irrelevant if we are to be revoking our membership of the single market.
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    The people who voted remain, are they really as smart or intellectual as they claim ?. Yeah polls found that those who voted remain had higher qualifications i.e degrees. But degrees are just pieces of paper they don't really mean ****, some of the most successful people have no degrees or qualifications. The say Leavers are dumb and leaving the EU would have bad consequences, but what if their wrong what if it's the best decision Britain ever makes. How can they possibly know how it will affect us, these so called experts who claimed the majority would vote remain. Unless the impacts and affects are blatantly obvious we can't really judge a political decision like this until at least a few years.

    We just have to sit back and wait and see ( Personally i think the EU will collapse and Britain for a short time will be worse off, but we will recover and grow).
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    Right. So we want to end free movement of goods and labour but maintain the Common Travel Area with the Republic of Ireland (+ crown dependencies).

    So anyone getting off a Paris-Dublin flight with a French passport can enter and mill about Ireland as they please - but can't cross the open and unpoliced border, and can't board an unpoliced domestic flight between NI and Great Britain. Is it expected that EU migrants abide by these rules out of their own free will?

    Seriously, I can't for a second imagine how it's going to be enforced. A hard border? Republicans in NI will have a field day. Passport checks on arrival in Great Britain for flights originating in NI? Unionists will have a field day. UK passport checks in Ireland? Farcical. The recent politico-cultural rhetoric has got us thicker-skinned and less prone to being "offended", but let's not forget that people are still killing each other over the peace process.
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    (Original post by rockrunride)
    Right. So we want to end free movement of goods and labour but maintain the Common Travel Area with the Republic of Ireland (+ crown dependencies).

    So anyone getting off a Paris-Dublin flight with a French passport can enter and mill about Ireland as they please - but can't cross the open and unpoliced border, and can't board an unpoliced domestic flight between NI and Great Britain. Is it expected that EU migrants abide by these rules out of their own free will?

    Seriously, I can't for a second imagine how it's going to be enforced. A hard border? Republicans in NI will have a field day. Passport checks on arrival in Great Britain for flights originating in NI? Unionists will have a field day. UK passport checks in Ireland? Farcical. The recent politico-cultural rhetoric has got us thicker-skinned and less prone to being "offended", but let's not forget that people are still killing each other over the peace process.
    It could end up a smugglers paradise as well if tariffs get imposed between the UK and EU. Realistically there'll have to be a hard border somewhere if this happens. With the best will in the world I think that just asking people not to dodge import duties and hoping they don't is a bit optimistic.
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    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    You know, we don't mind. Because we are Europeans, members of the same community, and help our brothers out. If I were paying taxes in Germany I wouldn't mind some of my tax Euros going to poorer nations. And that's the difference between us and you lot - empathy, solidarity, good-will, you lack all of those things. And that's why it's good you're out and will suffer badly.
    Wow.

    This level of Anglophobia is simply unacceptable in 2017.
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    (Original post by Snufkin)
    Ooo which other EU country are you a citizen of?
    Germany
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    Germany
    Interesting! German parent? Have you always been a German citizen or did you apply for it after Brexit?
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    (Original post by Snufkin)
    Interesting! German parent? Have you always been a German citizen or did you apply for it after Brexit?
    Yes. I've always had German citizenship but I hadn't renewed my German passport for years. First thing I did after the referendum results were announced was to book an appointment at the embassy!
 
 
 
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