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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    The fact we're even arguing over what 'access to' means goes to show how uselessly vague the term is. Yes, CETA grants access to the EEA, but any country who trades with the EU can be said to 'have access' - and this even includes North Korea.



    That's not a logical assumption at all. There's more to this than economics. The EU can't be seen to allow countries to tailor deals that grant them all the benefits of the EEA with none of the 'undesirable' commitments. It would set a dangerous precedent for the EU. This isn't spite, it's self-interest.
    So then the only thing keeping members together in the 'union' is fear. Fear of countries seeking to do what is in the interests of their people. If that's not a protectionist racket then I don't know what is.

    Imagine the Eurozone not having access to the City of London, just to make some petty political point that their union is strong and beneficial to members whilst they simultaneously drown in the economic chaos it would cause. I know they're incompetent over in Brussels, but they're not that incompetent.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    You're listing the thing that are said at the beginning of every Conservative government, and every election. If they're going to happen now why didn't they happen before? What's special now? And before you say brexit, most of those things could be done even as an EU member state.

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    Wow, yes exactly. Hence Vote Leave generally being a waste of time. Glad you got there eventually.
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    (Original post by midnightice)
    So then the only thing keeping members together in the 'union' is fear. Fear of countries seeking to do what is in the interests of their people. If that's not a protectionist racket then I don't know what is.
    Just realised another reason why this line of argument is retarded. You do realise all states do this right?


    [/quote]
    Imagine the Eurozone not having access to the City of London, just to make some petty political point that their union is strong and beneficial to members whilst they simultaneously drown in the economic chaos it would cause. I know they're incompetent over in Brussels, but they're not that incompetent.[/QUOTE]

    Of course they'd have some access to it, but why would it give favourable access to it?
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    You support compulsory national service? That's not very libertarian of you.
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    I didn't mean to highlight that one.

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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Just realised another reason why this line of argument is retarded. You do realise all states do this right?




    Of course they'd have some access to it, but why would it give favourable access to it?
    Because it's favourable to themselves. Derp derp.

    London is the global leader in innovation within financial services. That will not change.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    You say that like it is a good thing. Why would any company wish to have to work to two or more different standards? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

    I remember the first time I changed brake fluid. I was in Halfords and noticed that there were two types of fluid. There was one for basically every car in the world, and the other was for certain types of Citron. It is a nightmare. I remember my first trip to France in the 80s. As well as driving on the other side of the road, French cars all had yellow headlights and no doubt a whole load of other features and standards that were different to Germany and different to the UK. All quaint and heart warming. But then back in the 80s most households could only afford to run one car. Couple had to share. Cars were really expensive compared to earnings. Is that what we want again?

    The idea that somehow the UK can be freed of all this "red tape" is just barmy. The only people I can see waving this flag are the Little Englanders who get a boner form the idea of buying a pound of apples (not a kilo) from their local greengrocers. However, the irony is that those same people put the local greengrocers out of business because they prefer the cheap imports of uniformly precise apples well packaged, sold by Tesco down the road.
    Over 90% of businesses in the UK do not export to the EU, yet they are bound by all of its regulation. 10 years ago the UK exported over 50% of its goods and services to the EU, now it's 44% and on a constant downward path. It makes no sense to apply all EU regulation to our entire domestic economy if our trade is increasingly elsewhere in the world.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Now we can:

    Abolish Tarriffs
    Slash Corporation tax
    Stop wasting money on areas outside the South East (and foreign aid)
    Massively Cut immigration.
    Leave the ECHR
    Make JR Mogg Governor of the Bank of England
    Leave NATO and forge a partnership with Trump and Putin
    Scrap all H&S regulation
    Scrap maternity pay
    Outlaw unions
    Bring back Death penalty
    Compulsory National Service
    Knight Nigel Farage
    Spend £59 million on a royal yacht
    Scrap the BBC Nationalise the Daily Mail
    Cut welfare and force claimants to do hard manual labour
    Give our police guns
    ...

    And other common sense measures
    Instead of the death penalty couldn't we just keep the BBC and make lifers watch it 24/7. Now that is a fate worse than death
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Is that like the severe suffering of the last 6 months?
    No, your currency collapsing and your main industry planning relocations was just the warm-up before Brexit actually happens.
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    (Original post by NickLCFC)
    Wow.

    This level of Anglophobia is simply unacceptable in 2017.
    Calling you lot out for the evident nationalism, arrogance, xenopobia, and unfeelingness isn't Anglophobia, it's an easy and factual observation to make for Europe and the rest of the world. Now you're reaping what you sow.
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    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    Calling you lot out for the evident nationalism, arrogance, xenopobia, and unfeelingness isn't Anglophobia, it's an easy and factual observation to make for Europe and the rest of the world. Now you're reaping what you sow.
    What are you basing those allegations on? All I've seen so far as you having a major chip on your shoulder. And FYI, I'm sure I speak for most Leavers when I say that I'm quite fond of Europe, and want the European people to flourish without the EU yoking them down.
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    (Original post by astutehirstute)
    Yes you do help your brothers. They didn't want to take in all those Muslims, so you get to have them all! Marvellous.

    Wait till later this year and you get to take another million!

    Can you say Freedom of Movement? Can you say, Common European Border?

    Can you say Wilkommen another million Muslim (not rapey at all) men?
    Ah, another deplorable islamophobe!

    Yeah, we took in (close to) a million Muslims, and will take in more. Because we're good people, not cynical nationalists. And because our country can actually take the load, unlike yours.

    The fact that you bring up rape shows how uneducated you are about the topic (and probably academically too), so do stfu before I need to embarrass you any more.
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    (Original post by jape)
    What are you basing those allegations on?
    A majority of the British population voting to leave the EU following a campaign run purely on nationalism and xenophobia. Your most-read newspapers perpetuating hostility towards the EU, Europe, and immigrants. Having lived in and visited the UK many times. Comments on TSR.

    Did you know that the UK is the only country in the world to have a 'banter' culture? All you're doing is putting each other down 'for fun'. That really speaks volumes about the climate and general sentiment in your society. Hostility, dog-eat-dog, us-against-them. Disgusting. Most languages don't even have an equivalent of 'banter'. Why would you want to tease and put down others, let alone your friends, for no reason? Why do you feel the need to put yourself above others? Phantom limb pains of a lost empire?

    (Original post by jape)
    And FYI, I'm sure I speak for most Leavers when I say that I'm quite fond of Europe, and want the European people to flourish without the EU yoking them down.
    You don't. You really don't. Have you spoken to other Leavers?

    The EU isn't yoking anyone down. It's to everyone's benefit, and you very soon will wish you were still in it.
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    This thread is hilarious


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    (Original post by midnightice)
    Over 90% of businesses in the UK do not export to the EU, yet they are bound by all of its regulation. 10 years ago the UK exported over 50% of its goods and services to the EU, now it's 44% and on a constant downward path. It makes no sense to apply all EU regulation to our entire domestic economy if our trade is increasingly elsewhere in the world.
    Since when was 42% of exports a small number? The US is only 18% and comes with a whole set of regulations. So if we create our own, that is yet another cost to business.

    So are you suggesting we abandon EU rules on quality and safety and start producing cheap crap? Most EU regulation is good for consumers (us). It stops us being exploited by businesses.

    Which regulations in particular offend you so much? I have yet to here a red tape protagonist like you name one.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Wow, yes exactly. Hence Vote Leave generally being a waste of time. Glad you got there eventually.
    So because a lot of things that aren't government policy and most people don't want can be done in the EU it makes it a waste to leave the EU so we can do the things that people actually want us to do?

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    It strikes me May is heading for the same trap Cameron found himself in.

    She had originally planned a Brexit white paper. That could have discussed what we could realistically obtain and number crunch some consequences of this.

    May has now rejected this in favour of a "motherhood and apple pie" speech with no attempt to manage expectations on the part of the public.

    May may say that "no deal is better than a bad deal" but in the real world no politician ever comes back empty-handed. Either a deal is made or talks will continue. Saying you are unable to make a deal, is tantamount to an invitation to be replaced by someone else who promises he or she will get a deal.

    When the eventual deal is published, people are going to work out what the deal means for them. There is going to be a groundswell of opposition from a lot of different groups who are not going to see this as an opportunity but rather as a threat. That opposition is going to be focussed.

    Whether May thinks she can pitch this on the basis of "this deal or WTO rules", but surely the other EU states are not going to play that game. They are surely going to say that it is not too late to call the whole thing off. It is one of the unwritten rules of the EU club, occasionally broken, that EU members do not interfere in the politics of other member states. Particularly with the example of Putin in front of them, EU leaders are surely not going to give May the opportunity to "spin" the deal as she wants.
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    It strikes me May is heading for the same trap Cameron found himself in.

    She had originally planned a Brexit white paper. That could have discussed what we could realistically obtain and number crunch some consequences of this.

    May has now rejected this in favour of a "motherhood and apple pie" speech with no attempt to manage expectations on the part of the public.

    May may say that "no deal is better than a bad deal" but in the real world no politician ever comes back empty-handed. Either a deal is made or talks will continue. Saying you are unable to make a deal, is tantamount to an invitation to be replaced by someone else who promises he or she will get a deal.

    When the eventual deal is published, people are going to work out what the deal means for them. There is going to be a groundswell of opposition from a lot of different groups who are not going to see this as an opportunity but rather as a threat. That opposition is going to be focussed.

    Whether May thinks she can pitch this on the basis of "this deal or WTO rules", but surely the other EU states are not going to play that game. They are surely going to say that it is not too late to call the whole thing off. It is one of the unwritten rules of the EU club, occasionally broken, that EU members do not interfere in the politics of other member states. Particularly with the example of Putin in front of them, EU leaders are surely not going to give May the opportunity to "spin" the deal as she wants.
    A key difference is that Cameron walking away from the table would have been a total failure, may doing the same is not, it's a slight failure but mostly can be easily spun as success.

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    A key difference is that Cameron walking away from the table would have been a total failure, may doing the same is not, it's a slight failure but mostly can be easily spun as success.

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    It won't be that easy to spin.

    Labour and the Liberals will predictably say "its a failure". Big Nige will say he could have got a deal. Sources close to various cabinet ministers will explain the "mistakes" that May made which means she was unable to secure a deal. European politicians will set out the terms of the very generous offer which May rejected. If they are well crafted May will have difficulty saying what is wrong with those proposals. What is generally wrong with diplomatic offers is not what is written on the paper, but what is not written and criticising the omissions often involves what can't be said, because it implies a lack of good faith on the part of the other side.
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    (Original post by Drewski)
    Maybe, maybe not.

    But at least we won't have to carry countries like Greece. Enjoy that.
    A full Greek default would still impact us - the global banks are all interlocked in their Greek sovereign debt load and the impacts of bank failures in Europe will still clobber us hard. Then the taxpayer would as usual be informed that they would be bearing the impact and the traders and bankers who made millions from all the dodgy debt deals would be relaxing in their tax havens on their yachts.
 
 
 
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