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Does a strict border control (e.g. after Brexit) promote racism and/or xenophobia? watch

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    (Original post by demaistre)
    The majority of Brits don't want more migration they want less,that doesn't mean there aren't people who want them here just because the majority don't.
    The major parties ignore the peoples concerns for the most part as they know the average Brit only ever votes for one of two parties.
    If they wanted less migration, they'd be willing to pay for it. They'd be willing not to hire migrants, not to employ them, not to sell or rent their properties to them. But doing so will mean they'll pay a heavy price out of their pockets.

    Attitudes toward immigration are complex.
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    (Original post by jape)
    I don't want to spend an extended period of time in a country I can just walk right into. It's dangerous.

    Plus, there's the strain immigration puts on the welfare state and the fact that the welfare state ensures the quality of immigrants who want to come in the first place are sub-par (for clarity, I do not mean "brown", I mean less likely to found businesses and create wealth).
    Ones that are hunting for benefits put strain on welfare state. Rest are contributing in most cases.
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    (Original post by thecsstudent)
    So you're saying that if you're born in an impoverished nation in Africa or simply a country with very high levels of unemployment and low income levels with no prospect of improving within your lifetime you should be doomed to stay there forever and live in poverty simply because the "luckier" ones who were born in a country which right now is in a better situation can keep you out?
    If inhabitant of x African country wants to move to y Western nation and y doesn't want them, that is y's choice. X can choose to go to another nation that wants x, y shouldn't be forced to accept x.
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    (Original post by RainbowMan)
    If they wanted less migration, they'd be willing to pay for it. They'd be willing not to hire migrants, not to employ them, not to sell or rent their properties to them. But doing so will mean they'll pay a heavy price out of their pockets.

    Attitudes toward immigration are complex.
    The majority as I said don't want it, smaller % that make up the rich middle and upper class love it, hence why they sell, employ and rent to them.
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    (Original post by demaistre)
    The majority as I said don't want it, smaller % that make up the rich middle and upper class love it, hence why they sell, employ and rent to them.
    People who own small properties and small stores aren't rich.
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    (Original post by RainbowMan)
    People who own small properties and small stores aren't rich.
    They certainly aren't the majority either.
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    (Original post by demaistre)
    If inhabitant of x African country wants to move to y Western nation and y doesn't want them, that is y's choice. X can choose to go to another nation that wants x, y shouldn't be forced to accept x.
    But does the fact that y doesn't want x mean y is racist or xenophobic? Why wouldn't you want x to come to your country? I think in the case of the UK a big part of the population that does not want immigrants feel this way because either they believe in stereotypes (e.g. immigrants are thieves), so there are underlying racist motives, or because they are afraid immigrants will "steal their jobs", which could be a form of xenophobia.
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    No, the reverse is true. When no border controls means tonnes of foreigners arrive rapidly and problems are caused by that (e.g. unaffordable housing or no integration) and they had no say in this, people turn to racism
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    (Original post by thecsstudent)
    But does the fact that y doesn't want x mean y is racist or xenophobic? Why wouldn't you want x to come to your country? I think in the case of the UK a big part of the population that does not want immigrants feel this way because either they believe in stereotypes (e.g. immigrants are thieves), so there are underlying racist motives, or because they are afraid immigrants will "steal their jobs", which could be a form of xenophobia.
    It's irrelevant what the reason is it isn't x's nation, and most anti immigrant people don't hate immigrants or foreigners, they simply believe their nation and people should be put first in all things. Does you putting your own family first mean you hate every other family? No of course it doesn't.
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    (Original post by demaistre)
    They certainly aren't the majority either.
    They are, together with medium and large sized businesses and property owners, the totality of the economic activity of the country. They literally own the country. If people don't want immigrants in their properties, then don't give them jobs and do not sell products and services to them. They won't come unless there's demand.

    But you don't have the right to tell other people how they'll use their property. Nobody forces you to use your own property in any specific way, don't demand that others use it in a way that is pleasing to you.
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    (Original post by RainbowMan)
    They are, together with medium and large sized businesses and property owners, the totality of the economic activity of the country. They literally own the country. If people don't want immigrants in their properties, then don't give them jobs and do not sell products and services to them. They won't come unless there's demand.

    But you don't have the right to tell other people how they'll use their property. Nobody forces you to use your own property in any specific way, don't demand that others use it in a way that is pleasing to you.
    The people own the country.
    I have the right and do demand that others use their property for the good of the nation, no man is an island. Hiring cheap foreign workers undercutting British wages and then constantly going out and saying 'British workers are lazy' is not for the good of the nation.
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    (Original post by demaistre)
    The people own the country.
    I have the right and do demand that others use their property for the good of the nation, no man is an island. Hiring cheap foreign workers undercutting British wages and then constantly going out and saying 'British workers are lazy' is not for the good of the nation.
    Except you don't get to define the good of the nation.

    And no, you don't own the property of another person - in the UK at least. In the UK and the Western legal tradition more broadly, the property of a man is his and what you seem to suggest is theft (namely, third parties having control over it without his consent).

    Maybe in some Islamic majority countries , they follow your model and the state gets to do whatever it wants with the property of people in the name of the "common" good (Erdogan).
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    (Original post by demaistre)
    It's irrelevant what the reason is it isn't x's nation, and most anti immigrant people don't hate immigrants or foreigners, they simply believe their nation and people should be put first in all things. Does you putting your own family first mean you hate every other family? No of course it doesn't.
    Defining "your people" in such a strict sense, as in the people you were born in the same country with to me isn't right. What does it mean that you were born in the same country? And why would you care only for the people of your own country and not for people in general? Maybe because you care that it serves your own interests instead of the country's as a whole.
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    (Original post by RainbowMan)
    Except you don't get to define the good of the nation.

    And no, you don't own the property of another person - in the UK at least. In the UK and the Western legal tradition more broadly, the property of a man is his and what you seem to suggest is theft (namely, third parties having control over it without his consent).

    Maybe in some Islamic majority countries , they follow your model and the state gets to do whatever it wants with the property of people in the name of the "common" good (Erdogan).
    Why can't I? Why does some upper class toff making bank from under cutting British wages get to decide it?

    Taxation is theft too am I right my Ancap friend?

    Britain is not a middle eastern Islamic country comparing the two is nonsense.
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    (Original post by thecsstudent)
    Defining "your people" in such a strict sense, as in the people you were born in the same country with to me isn't right. What does it mean that you were born in the same country? And why would you care only for the people of your own country and not for people in general? Maybe because you care that it serves your own interests instead of the country's as a whole.
    What other sense would I define it in? Some naive sense of common humanity maybe?
    Born in the same country, bound by blood, culture, religion etc etc, I define it pretty much the same way the majority of people throughout history have when talking about a nation.
    'Maybe because you care that it serves your own interests instead of the country's as a whole.'
    Couldn't I make this exact same point about your position?
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    (Original post by demaistre)
    It's irrelevant what the reason is it isn't x's nation, and most anti immigrant people don't hate immigrants or foreigners, they simply believe their nation and people should be put first in all things. Does you putting your own family first mean you hate every other family? No of course it doesn't.
    Exactly, I dont really care if an immigrant is black or white or whatever, if he can fit in with the culture provide something we need and we can fit them in with housing and infrastructure.
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    (Original post by thecsstudent)
    Defining "your people" in such a strict sense, as in the people you were born in the same country with to me isn't right. What does it mean that you were born in the same country? And why would you care only for the people of your own country and not for people in general? Maybe because you care that it serves your own interests instead of the country's as a whole.
    Because EVERY country has a duty to serve its people over other people, If I went to live in poland and I was told that I needed to bring skills into the country and was expected to have a job within X months and had to be able to support myself I would be perfectly fine with that
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    (Original post by AperfectBalance)
    Because EVERY country has a duty to serve its people over other people, If I went to live in poland and I was told that I needed to bring skills into the country and was expected to have a job within X months and had to be able to support myself I would be perfectly fine with that
    Same if I wanted to move to....Japan for example would I complain the Japanese government was putting natives first? No of course not.
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    ITT: People afraid of Poles
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    (Original post by KardasDragon)
    ITT: People afraid of Poles
    As long as you don't lick them when they are cold or walk into them while texting I think you have no reason to be afraid.
 
 
 
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