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Does a strict border control (e.g. after Brexit) promote racism and/or xenophobia? Watch

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    (Original post by demaistre)
    What other sense would I define it in? Some naive sense of common humanity maybe?
    Born in the same country, bound by blood, culture, religion etc etc, I define it pretty much the same way the majority of people throughout history have when talking about a nation.
    'Maybe because you care that it serves your own interests instead of the country's as a whole.'
    Couldn't I make this exact same point about your position?
    You are mixing up nation with country. Nowadays countries and nations are not the same thing. There's British people that live in other countries. They belong to the British nation because they have common history, culture and tradition but not the British country. So when talking about a country you can't speak about being bound by blood and culture necessarily. That's why "my people" and "other people" are terms that do not mean much.
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    (Original post by RainbowMan)
    What you (and I) are saying is, by the way, common sense when it comes to hiring people for NASA or the high tech industry in the US. They seek the best candidates without caring too much about where they come from. The best scientists, the best engineers, the best business executives.
    Not everyone can be scientists or engineers. This jobs require intelligence and compassion and the main purpose for it is to explore the world around us, not prevent engineers and their families from starving.
    Now, almost anyone can work in lidl or be a cleaner. These jobs usually aren't paid well and, in my opinion, exist to support those who for various reasons can't get a high tech job like engineering. For most of these people its a matter of having a house and food.
    My point being, there is a distinction between the jobs you listed and the jobs that are usually in question when someone says 'foreigners steal our jobs'

    (Original post by thecsstudent)
    But my point is why should British citizens be prioritised? The country in which someone is born by luck shouldn't affect the chances they have to get a job if they are willing to move somewhere else.
    I'm not saying countries shouldn't have borders I'm just saying the role of the borders should not be to keep law abiding people out of a country.
    You shouldn't also be forced to move out of your country, change your friends, environment and culture.
    Also, how do you know who is a 'law abiding person' and who is a scumbag who wants to live on benefits?
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    (Original post by demaistre)
    As long as you don't lick them when they are cold or walk into them while texting I think you have no reason to be afraid.
    That is actually sort of my point. Polish people aren't harming British society. What everyone seems to be afraid of are Africans and Arabs.

    Britain is free to set up restrictions on non-EU immigration however it wants. Plenty of East European countries have already done so.

    Leaving the EU won't alleviate any of the problems in Britain. The whole "immigrants are taking our jobs" rhetoric is *******s. Some industries are just dead and will remain dead, while others are too "menial" in order for Brits to take up. Most people who pick fruit in England are Poles because Brits don't want to do it themselves.
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    (Original post by thecsstudent)
    But does the fact that y doesn't want x mean y is racist or xenophobic? Why wouldn't you want x to come to your country? I think in the case of the UK a big part of the population that does not want immigrants feel this way because either they believe in stereotypes (e.g. immigrants are thieves), so there are underlying racist motives, or because they are afraid immigrants will "steal their jobs", which could be a form of xenophobia.
    Let's take this down to a micro-level.

    Do you open your own home up to anyone who might come in? If not, why do you have a greater right to your home than anyone else. Shouldn't everyone have a right to every home? I'm not saying there shouldn't be doors, but that doors should have a different purpose than they do now.


    Once you have an answer to that which you feel isn't racist, you will have the exact same answer to why immigration should be controlled that isn't racist.
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    (Original post by demaistre)
    Same if I wanted to move to....Japan for example would I complain the Japanese government was putting natives first? No of course not.
    A lot of people dont seem to get this and think that we want britain to have harsh immigration control, I want all countries to have it
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    (Original post by thecsstudent)
    You are mixing up nation with country. Nowadays countries and nations are not the same thing. There's British people that live in other countries. They belong to the British nation because they have common history, culture and tradition but not the British country. So when talking about a country you can't speak about being bound by blood and culture necessarily. That's why "my people" and "other people" are terms that do not mean much.
    Not at all unless you're a country like the US or Brazil country and nation are pretty much the same thing.
    My people is a no more a meaningless term than 'my family' is, and with this comment you show you have no clue why my side of the argument think as they do.
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    (Original post by AperfectBalance)
    A lot of people dont seem to get this and think that we want britain to have harsh immigration control, I want all countries to have it
    The funniest reply I get to this attitude is people going 'but what about Spain Brits don't assimilate over there ha got you' and I agree all countries should have it.
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    (Original post by KardasDragon)
    That is actually sort of my point. Polish people aren't harming British society. What everyone seems to be afraid of are Africans and Arabs.

    Britain is free to set up restrictions on non-EU immigration however it wants. Plenty of East European countries have already done so.

    Leaving the EU won't alleviate any of the problems in Britain. The whole "immigrants are taking our jobs" rhetoric is *******s. Some industries are just dead and will remain dead, while others are too "menial" in order for Brits to take up. Most people who pick fruit in England are Poles because Brits don't want to do it themselves.
    Don't ask me I voted based on sovereignty, it's the 'conservative' government being idiots that allow in the mass immigration from outside the EU.
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    (Original post by demaistre)
    Not at all unless you're a country like the US or Brazil country and nation are pretty much the same thing.
    My people is a no more a meaningless term than 'my family' is, and with this comment you show you have no clue why my side of the argument think as they do.
    My people and my family are completely different. My family has a strict definition of people I am related to by blood. The definition of my people varies from person to person and it is completely subjective.
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    (Original post by Nottie)
    Not everyone can be scientists or engineers. This jobs require intelligence and compassion and the main purpose for it is to explore the world around us, not prevent engineers and their families from starving.
    Now, almost anyone can work in lidl or be a cleaner. These jobs usually aren't paid well and, in my opinion, exist to support those who for various reasons can't get a high tech job like engineering. For most of these people its a matter of having a house and food.
    My point being, there is a distinction between the jobs you listed and the jobs that are usually in question when someone says 'foreigners steal our jobs'



    You shouldn't also be forced to move out of your country, change your friends, environment and culture.
    Also, how do you know who is a 'law abiding person' and who is a scumbag who wants to live on benefits?
    By law abiding person I mean a person with no criminal record.
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    (Original post by demaistre)
    Don't ask me I voted based on sovereignty, it's the 'conservative' government being idiots that allow in the mass immigration from outside the EU.
    So wouldnt you tehn agree that is is essential for us to remain a a part of the EEA and EFTA? A Norway or Switzerland style deal.

    UK is not member of Schengen, so even with the whole EEA thing it is still as free as it wants to be in regard to border security.
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    (Original post by KardasDragon)
    So wouldnt you tehn agree that is is essential for us to remain a a part of the EEA and EFTA? A Norway or Switzerland style deal.

    UK is not member of Schengen, so even with the whole EEA thing it is still as free as it wants to be in regard to border security.
    No as then the EU parliament still has some say over us, even if it's the tiniest amount.
    We should realign from Europe to the Anglosphere anything that furthers that goal I support.
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    (Original post by AperfectBalance)
    Because EVERY country has a duty to serve its people over other people, If I went to live in poland and I was told that I needed to bring skills into the country and was expected to have a job within X months and had to be able to support myself I would be perfectly fine with that
    Decisions in democratic countries are made based on what the majority votes. And that's the way it should be. So in a way yes, the country should operate based on what the majority of its citizens want because that is democratic. But the decisions the majority makes, like strict border control, aren't automatically non-racists, neither should the people of a country be only the people that were born there.
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    (Original post by KardasDragon)
    That is actually sort of my point. Polish people aren't harming British society. What everyone seems to be afraid of are Africans and Arabs.

    Britain is free to set up restrictions on non-EU immigration however it wants. Plenty of East European countries have already done so.

    Leaving the EU won't alleviate any of the problems in Britain. The whole "immigrants are taking our jobs" rhetoric is *******s. Some industries are just dead and will remain dead, while others are too "menial" in order for Brits to take up. Most people who pick fruit in England are Poles because Brits don't want to do it themselves.
    You think that when britain was mostly Brits that we didnt have people doing all the menial jobs, we have plenty of people now that are willing to do them and no one wants 0 immigrants we just need to control it to keep the British people and the immigrants already living here legally safe and to keep Britain strong
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    (Original post by ThatOldGuy)
    Let's take this down to a micro-level.

    Do you open your own home up to anyone who might come in? If not, why do you have a greater right to your home than anyone else. Shouldn't everyone have a right to every home? I'm not saying there shouldn't be doors, but that doors should have a different purpose than they do now.


    Once you have an answer to that which you feel isn't racist, you will have the exact same answer to why immigration should be controlled that isn't racist.
    A home and a country are not an exact analogy. A more appropriate analogy as I think someone mentioned before is a block of flats and a country. Yes, you can probably use your power to keep people of different nationalities out of your block of flats but that doesn't automatically mean that your motive for doing so is correct.
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    (Original post by heri2rs)
    British citizens are not prioritised relative to migrants. The British people want a strong border so they can get jobs without being undercut by migrants who work for less. It has nothing to do with xenophobia. We don't have an irrational fear of foreigners. Brits just want jobs. British people wont be prioritised ahead of migrants who already live here, because that is up to employers.

    What if everyone was law abiding? Should they all be able to come in?
    and whose to blame for that? The migrant who goes to the UK looking to better themself or the employer who knowingly and willingly breaks the law by paying them under the minimum wage?
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    (Original post by demaistre)
    The funniest reply I get to this attitude is people going 'but what about Spain Brits don't assimilate over there ha got you' and I agree all countries should have it.
    You speak the truth keep it up.

    Sure there are Brits that dont assimilate and I agree that is wrong, never have I said that all British people are the best. I dislike british people that scrounge benefits that dont deserve them as much as a black guy that does the same.
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    (Original post by KardasDragon)
    So wouldnt you tehn agree that is is essential for us to remain a a part of the EEA and EFTA? A Norway or Switzerland style deal.

    UK is not member of Schengen, so even with the whole EEA thing it is still as free as it wants to be in regard to border security.

    No it isnt. It cant rpevent anyone from the EY coming in although it can do border checks. Its the free movement of people coming to live here that has been one of the major issues. Evidently the givernment dont think its essential to stay in the EEA, although they would like to continue trade.
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    (Original post by thecsstudent)
    A home and a country are not an exact analogy. A more appropriate analogy as I think someone mentioned before is a block of flats and a country. Yes, you can probably use your power to keep people of different nationalities out of your block of flats but that doesn't automatically mean that your motive for doing so is correct.
    But its the people who own the flats and run them that get to decide i.e the management company. they are perfectly entitled to prevent strangers coming in who have nothing to do with the flats. the motives of the givernment are to act in the best interests of its people. If it decides it doesnt want just anyone coming here, then it has a system of immigration just like the one run by the government of the country of the non Uk citizen. If we dont wnat people coming in that is the right of our elected government to enforce. Its outrageous you think otherwise.
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    (Original post by 999tigger)
    But its the people who own the flats and run them that get to decide i.e the management company. they are perfectly entitled to prevent strangers coming in who have nothing to do with the flats. the motives of the givernment are to act in the best interests of its people. If it decides it doesnt want just anyone coming here, then it has a system of immigration just like the one run by the government of the country of the non Uk citizen. If we dont wnat people coming in that is the right of our elected government to enforce. Its outrageous you think otherwise.
    This is not the part I disagree with. I completely agree that citizens of a country should have the right to keep people out if they want to, no doubt about that. What I'm saying is, is the fact that they want to keep people out a byproduct of or a cause for xenophobia?
 
 
 
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