May's embarrassing capitulation

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Maker
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Just embarrassing. May has decided not to even try to negotiate staying in the single market. She surrendered without the EU even firing a shot.
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_Ddraig_
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And this needed a new thread why?
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Maker
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(Original post by _Morsey_)
And this needed a new thread why?
Whats it got to do with you.
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Davij038
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(Original post by Maker)
Just embarrassing. May has decided not to even try to negotiate staying in the single market. She surrendered without the EU even firing a shot.
Probably did try. Boris met the negotiators. And they probably laughed in his fat face.
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MagicNMedicine
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Membership of the single market isn't something you negotiate.

It's a set of rules that underpin the functioning of the "market": free movement of goods, services, capital and people. It's a "single market" because it represents a domestic market like the market of a nation state. It's only within nation states that goods, services, capital and people can move freely without any regulatory controls.

If you impose regulatory controls on any of those then you're no longer part of the single market. You can still look to sign a trade deal with it as an external partner but you're not participating in it.

Saying we should have negotiated access to the single market is not understanding what the single market is. What you probably mean is, she should try to negotiate a trade deal that gives very preferential access to the UK when it is outside, ie the UK imposes regulatory controls on the free movement of people so it isn't inside the market, but still retains tariff free trade on goods, free movement of capital and services, and is part of all the EU schemes on cross-border enforcement. That is still something that she can try to negotiate although other EU countries will probably not agree with it.

The other side to this is that non-tariff barriers (eg things like regulatory standards) are generally much more significant than actual tariffs in terms of barriers to trade. But in practice, you create a non-tariff barrier the moment you have a different rule than that of the single market. So you can't 'negotiate access' to these, you either say we will copy the EU's product standards rules, which gives businesses certainty that everything they produce for the UK will be up to the standards allowable for sale in the EU, or you say the UK has the right to set its own regulatory standards, which means the moment you start diverging from those rules you have different standards and so have a non-tariff barrier which in practical terms means you need to pass some system of testing and verification before selling to the EU, which will be a cost born by UK firms that want to export to the EU.
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Therec00
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(Original post by Maker)
Just embarrassing. May has decided not to even try to negotiate staying in the single market. She surrendered without the EU even firing a shot.
Would you rather join a market of 27 countries,

or the world market of 173 countries ?
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Maker
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(Original post by Therec00)
Would you rather join a market of 27 countries,

or the world market of 173 countries ?
I have a new years resolution of not talking to idiots, so bye.
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paul514
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(Original post by Maker)
Just embarrassing. May has decided not to even try to negotiate staying in the single market. She surrendered without the EU even firing a shot.
If they aren't going to move on free movement there is no negotiation.

It's the same with the customs union if they aren't going to allow us to set our own tariffs then there is no negotiation on that either.

You can only negotiate when you are willing to budge on a fundamental point


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Maker
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(Original post by paul514)
If they aren't going to move on free movement there is no negotiation.

It's the same with the customs union if they aren't going to allow us to set our own tariffs then there is no negotiation on that either.

You can only negotiate when you are willing to budge on a fundamental point


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So May will waste 2+ years talking to a brick wall.
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paul514
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(Original post by Maker)
So May will waste 2+ years talking to a brick wall.
More or less.

She will talk to them about a trade deal really rather than single market or customs union.

She will be looking for a deal on services most likely and minor stuff like working together on crime, unis etc


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shawn_o1
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I don't think anyone has ever had anything good to say about UK leaders of the immediate past. We elected them to destroy our proud manufacturing sector and turn us into a nation of banks, basically
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sayan98
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(Original post by Therec00)
Would you rather join a market of 27 countries,

or the world market of 173 countries ?
or the galaxies market of 200 billion planets?
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Maker
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(Original post by shawn_o1)
I don't think anyone has ever had anything good to say about UK leaders of the immediate past. We elected them to destroy our proud manufacturing sector and turn us into a nation of banks, basically
Some British manufacturers went to the wall but there a plenty that are thriving like Rolls Royce and Glaxo.

Its more a national problem where parents discourage their kids from working in factories as engineers and become service workers like accountants and solicitors because its more prestigious.

But in other countries like Spain, engineers have much higher social status rather than be lumped in with motor mechanics like in Britain.
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GenialGermanGent
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(Original post by Therec00)
Would you rather join a market of 27 countries,

or the world market of 173 countries ?
Too bad negotiating trade deals with those 173 countries will take you lot roughly 500 years... my God, you are seriously stupid for making that comment.
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citibankrec
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(Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
Too bad negotiating trade deals with those 173 countries will take you lot roughly 500 years... my God, you are seriously stupid for making that comment.
??
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GenialGermanGent
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(Original post by citibankrec)
??
You lot, as in you Brits. Luckily I am not one.
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Maker
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A lot of people will make a lot of money out of Brexit. Negotiators, lawyers, bankers etc all paid for by the Britiah taxpayer.
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username2766878
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And why should we stay in the Single Market? We have to accept not just free movement, but also implement EU directives and regulations (usually quite burdensome for small business) in our domestic law applying to businesses which don't even trade with the EU. To enforce the implementation of that, we have to abide by the rulings of the European Court of Justice, meaning our supreme court isn't supreme. The Single Market isn't some economic goldmine, it isn't even fully developed for services (which we're the main exporter of) and we can trade freely with the single market (as do many countries, like Canada, South Korea, Lebanon to name a few) via a free trade agreement that doesn't require British firms to abide by EU law 24/7.
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username2766878
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(Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
Too bad negotiating trade deals with those 173 countries will take you lot roughly 500 years... my God, you are seriously stupid for making that comment.
Moron, most of the 173 countries trade perfectly with extremely low tariffs via WTO rules and guess what, that's how the US and China (two of the EU's biggest trading partners) trade with the EU because the conflicting interests of the member states delays any trade agreement.
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username2766878
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(Original post by MagicNMedicine)
Membership of the single market isn't something you negotiate.

It's a set of rules that underpin the functioning of the "market": free movement of goods, services, capital and people. It's a "single market" because it represents a domestic market like the market of a nation state. It's only within nation states that goods, services, capital and people can move freely without any regulatory controls.

If you impose regulatory controls on any of those then you're no longer part of the single market. You can still look to sign a trade deal with it as an external partner but you're not participating in it.

Saying we should have negotiated access to the single market is not understanding what the single market is. What you probably mean is, she should try to negotiate a trade deal that gives very preferential access to the UK when it is outside, ie the UK imposes regulatory controls on the free movement of people so it isn't inside the market, but still retains tariff free trade on goods, free movement of capital and services, and is part of all the EU schemes on cross-border enforcement. That is still something that she can try to negotiate although other EU countries will probably not agree with it.

The other side to this is that non-tariff barriers (eg things like regulatory standards) are generally much more significant than actual tariffs in terms of barriers to trade. But in practice, you create a non-tariff barrier the moment you have a different rule than that of the single market. So you can't 'negotiate access' to these, you either say we will copy the EU's product standards rules, which gives businesses certainty that everything they produce for the UK will be up to the standards allowable for sale in the EU, or you say the UK has the right to set its own regulatory standards, which means the moment you start diverging from those rules you have different standards and so have a non-tariff barrier which in practical terms means you need to pass some system of testing and verification before selling to the EU, which will be a cost born by UK firms that want to export to the EU.
Very much in agreement with your explanation of the single market. On non-tariff barriers, it is important to note that the vast majority of businesses and indeed the majority of our exports are not headed to the EU. Nonetheless, firms exporting to the EU from the UK will simply do what other firms across the world do when they export to another market with different regulatory standards to their own...meet them. It's not that hard unless the EU makes it hard (which in that case will make the EU noncompetitive). Countries all across the world export to and import from one another without trying to harmonise their regulatory standards.
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