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P66 – Capital Punishment Referendum Petition 2017 Watch

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    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    In that case, I think we shall implement capital punishment for those found guilty of nuclear warfare.
    Well, they're already signing their own death warrant, and you you have the small problem that there won't likely be a functioning government afterwards, no matter what the PSAs say

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    Saracen's Fez - to make the referendum binding, could we pass a simple three line bill if the petition is passed?
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    Nay, state should not have power to kill people. Ever. Unfortunately if this goes down to a referendum it will turn into a daily mail fuelled kill all the muderers and pedos party.

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Well, they're already signing their own death warrant, and you you have the small problem that there won't likely be a functioning government afterwards, no matter what the PSAs say

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    Well yes, precisely, as I can't imagine we'd be of a mind to actually implement the death penalty in practice.
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    (Original post by Obiejess)
    Nay, state should not have power to kill people. Ever. Unfortunately if this goes down to a referendum it will turn into a daily mail fuelled kill all the muderers and pedos party.

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    Unless we're talking about euthanasia, then it's okay for the state to go around killing people because they lack the willpower and conviction to do it themselves.

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Unless we're talking about euthanasia, then it's okay for the state to go around killing people because they lack the willpower and conviction to do it themselves.

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    Not really the state killing people is it. It's helping people kill themselves.

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    (Original post by Connor27)
    Saracen's Fez - to make the referendum binding, could we pass a simple three line bill if the petition is passed?
    You are welcome to submit a bill to implement this before the petition goes to vote, and I will put it up for the House to consider when they vote on this petition.
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    The death penalty is expensive, ineffective and, with miscarriages of justice inevitable, dangerous. Obvious nay

    But also a nay to referendums. Our constitution is rooted in parliamentary sovereignty, making referendums redundant. They are an irritating European import, conducive to the primacy of people's base whims and detrimental to reasoned debate.
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    (Original post by tengentoppa)
    The death penalty is expensive, ineffective and, with miscarriages of justice inevitable, dangerous. Obvious nay

    But also a nay to referendums. Our constitution is rooted in parliamentary sovereignty, making referendums redundant. They are an irritating European import, conducive to the primacy of people's base whims and detrimental to reasoned debate.
    So direct democracy is detrimental to reasoned debate eh?

    You must be one of those odious Lord Salisbury style traditionalist tories that despises all non aristocrats; "the voters are vermin" and all that...
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    (Original post by Connor27)
    So direct democracy is detrimental to reasoned debate eh?

    You must be one of those odious Lord Salisbury style traditionalist tories that despises all non aristocrats; "the voters are vermin" and all that...
    The whole point of representative democracy is to allow the people to have their say on the way the country is governed, without having them respond to specific issues which they have neither the time nor the knowledge to decide on.

    Leave referendums to the despots and the demagogues, parliamentary democracy has worked for centuries and will continue to do so.
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    (Original post by Obiejess)
    Nay, state should not have power to kill people. Ever. Unfortunately if this goes down to a referendum it will turn into a daily mail fuelled kill all the muderers and pedos party.

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    Regardless, we can't disregard everyone that doesn't hold left wing intelligentsia beliefs, that's the sort of thinking that leads to dystopias.

    We need to have these sorts of debate and answer them in the proper way; part of the reason for Brexit was this attitude of "we know best plebs" and putting it off for so long, if we have campaigns on these sort of things straight away and reject the populists' arguments in the right way, then the DM and the Express etc will shut up.
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    (Original post by tengentoppa)
    The whole point of representative democracy is to allow the people to have their say on the way the country is governed, without having them respond to specific issues which they have neither the time nor the knowledge to decide on.

    Leave referendums to the despots and the demagogues, parliamentary democracy has worked for centuries and will continue to do so.
    I would argue it's only lasted that long because of constant evolutionary reforms thanks to the organic nature of the constitution; for example giving the poor a vote; giving women the vote; giving MPs a salary to allow for working class MPs etc etc.

    More Direct Democracy is the next stage in that evolution, its already started: look at all the referendums in Cameron's terms, would you call him a despot or a demagogue?
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    (Original post by Connor27)
    I would argue it's only lasted that long because of constant evolutionary reforms thanks to the organic nature of the constitution; for example giving the poor a vote; giving women the vote; giving MPs a salary to allow for working class MPs etc etc.

    More Direct Democracy is the next stage in that evolution, its already started: look at all the referendums in Cameron's terms, would you call him a despot or a demagogue?
    I'd call him a man leading a divided coalition, then a divided country and then a divided party. Referendum's are only used to resolve seemingly intractable divisions or to solidify a position that you're sure will win. I don't think capital punishment - one of the ultimate abuses of state power - is an issue in need of a referendum.
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    (Original post by Connor27)
    Regardless, we can't disregard everyone that doesn't hold left wing intelligentsia beliefs, that's the sort of thinking that leads to dystopias.

    We need to have these sorts of debate and answer them in the proper way; part of the reason for Brexit was this attitude of "we know best plebs" and putting it off for so long, if we have campaigns on these sort of things straight away and reject the populists' arguments in the right way, then the DM and the Express etc will shut up.
    If someone wants a referendum on this, there needs to be some level of mandate. Doing this out of the blue is just asking for trouble.

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    (Original post by Obiejess)
    If someone wants a referendum on this, there needs to be some level of mandate. Doing this out of the blue is just asking for trouble.

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    If you want a mandate I'll link you to the various opinion polls showing clear majorities in favour of reinstatement if you want?
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    I'd call him a man leading a divided coalition, then a divided country and then a divided party. Referendum's are only used to resolve seemingly intractable divisions or to solidify a position that you're sure will win. I don't think capital punishment - one of the ultimate abuses of state power - is an issue in need of a referendum.
    You really are a cynical guy; such a cold calculating attitude to the electorate.

    Wouldn't you think that this shows the electorate, particularly the working class people who are statistically shown to support this more, would see this as a gesture of; "we're listening to what you want, we aren't 'all the same' or 'out of touch' as is always claimed."

    Sad to see the Labour Party Leader showing such disdain for the concerns of the common man, I do wonder what McDonald and Keir Hardie would make of such a scenario...
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    Nay. The state must not exercise it's powers with the guillotine. The state must pursue a better path and hold itself to a higher moral standard than should be expected of an individual. This referendum will undoubtedly devolve into a heated but emotional argument when the essence of justice is detachment. Furthermore, on a more practical note, a debate on capital punishment would be welcome but a bill would have sufficed. There simply isn't, in my view, an engaging enough debate to be had on this issue to warrant a TSR-wide referendum - as opposed to, for example, the EU and Monarchy issue which can be tackled from so many different angles.
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    (Original post by Connor27)
    You really are a cynical guy; such a cold calculating attitude to the electorate.

    Wouldn't you think that this shows the electorate, particularly the working class people who are statistically shown to support this more, would see this as a gesture of; "we're listening to what you want, we aren't 'all the same' or 'out of touch' as is always claimed."

    Sad to see the Labour Party Leader showing such disdain for the concerns of the common man, I do wonder what McDonald and Keir Hardie would make of such as scenario...
    Someone on the left has to be. A great man once said, 'the Labour Party is a moral crusade or it is nothing'. I have no intention of risking a huge step backwards for the sake of a gesture. Gesture politics is purile. Never mind the fact that we just had a bunch of 'gestures' thanks to Cameron.

    I honestly believe that the electorate, particularly the working class, want to see properly funded public services and a more equal society in order to believe that politics is working for them. And whilst capital punishment is often favoured by a majority of those polled it is rarely by a significant majority these days nor is it a sure thing that it is truly popular. I think if you asked people to list their political priorities then bringing back the rope would fall far, far down the list of those in favour.
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    Nay. The state must not exercise it's powers with the guillotine. The state must pursue a better path and hold itself to a higher moral standard than should be expected of an individual. This referendum will undoubtedly devolve into a heated but emotional argument when the essence of justice is detachment. Furthermore, on a more practical note, a debate on capital punishment would be welcome but a bill would have sufficed. There simply isn't, in my view, an engaging enough debate to be had on this issue to warrant a TSR-wide referendum - as opposed to, for example, the EU and Monarchy issue which can be tackled from so many different angles.
    And you call me out for hyperbole :laugh:

    Implementation would be done by your government in the event of a yes vote as I've already said; but I can safely say that I don't believe the yes campaign would advocate for hangings or beheadings, more likely the humane and painless lethal injection.
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    (Original post by Connor27)
    If you want a mandate I'll link you to the various opinion polls showing clear majorities in favour of reinstatement if you want?
    Opinion polls =/= political mandate.

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