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P66 – Capital Punishment Referendum Petition 2017 Watch

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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    I obviously would not agree - seeing as you're pitching the question as being so vague as to be tolerable to those otherwise against. Also, one of your main arguments appears to be how this would be such a good public debate to have (I disagree with that too of course) and so even those of us absolutely opposed to the reintroduction of capital punishment should support this referendum - well having the debate does not necessitate enacting the policy and you must recognise this if your debate argument is to be at all convincing.
    Well, I agree of course, but whether some of the more extreme members to my right that support the death penalty would agree is another matter, that's what I was trying to get at, not that I'd be writing a MoNC myself.
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    I obviously would not agree - seeing as you're pitching the question as being so vague as to be tolerable to those otherwise against. Also, one of your main arguments appears to be how this would be such a good public debate to have (I disagree with that too of course) and so even those of us absolutely opposed to the reintroduction of capital punishment should support this referendum - well having the debate does not necessitate enacting the policy and you must recognise this if your debate argument is to be at all convincing.
    This - my main point. I'd quite like the debate to be had, I just wish it had no practical impact in the House.

    An even better question: "Should Parliament consider reintroducing capital punishment?"
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    (Original post by Connor27)
    Well, I agree of course, but whether some of the more extreme members to my right that support the death penalty would agree is another matter, that's what I was trying to get at, not that I'd be writing a MoNC myself.
    I don't think the MoNC would be anymore justified than MoNCing Mrs May if here Brexit agreement includes membership of the single-market (which would mean we'd technically be out of the EU but the status quo would remain very similar).

    I would expect a majority of TSR's MPs - and I expect a majority are against capital punishment anyway - to agree with me. Of course, mobbsy is free to take a shot at my job whenever he wants. Though he'll probably remember that when he was in government I went against the grain and refrained from backing petty MoNCs against the Tories.
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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    This - my main point. I'd quite like the debate to be had, I just wish it had no practical impact in the House.

    An even better question: "Should Parliament consider reintroducing capital punishment?"
    That's pushing it, you can have the first suggestion, that's too far, basically just a glorified opinion poll.
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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    This - my main point. I'd quite like the debate to be had, I just wish it had no practical impact in the House.

    An even better question: "Should Parliament consider reintroducing capital punishment?"
    I could abstain on that. I wouldn't vote in favour because I still believe it's a waste of time. You can cover the important discussion topics on this issue in an afternoon before you get into some terribly bland faff that your average TSR user won't engage in. I'm almost certain that TSR users (not as sure with regards to the general public) would vote against reintroduction anyway, but as I said, I don't think it's a worthwhile thing to do.
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    (Original post by Connor27)
    That's pushing it, you can have the first suggestion, that's too far, basically just a glorified opinion poll.
    That's the point. Anything which risks reintroduction is unacceptable.
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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    That's the point. Anything which risks reintroduction is unacceptable.
    What do you mean "risks reintroduction" - all it determines is whether or not you'll be creating a bill (that you'll get to decide the contents of) that parliament will vote on.
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    (Original post by Connor27)
    What do you mean "risks reintroduction" - all it determines is whether or not you'll be creating a bill (that you'll get to decide the contents of) that parliament will vote on.
    Hm, okay, maybe I'm misunderstanding referendum petitions in the GD. I believed the result of all referendums was automatically binding. Saracen's Fez, could you clarify?
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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    Hm, okay, maybe I'm misunderstanding referendum petitions in the GD. I believed the result of all referendums was automatically binding. Saracen's Fez, could you clarify?
    He already did on the OP:

    "I've never seen one of these in my time in the House. It will have normal petition rules, with the exception that the petition will be binding, subject to CT approval. The referendum itself, as no bill has been submitted to implement such a change, will not be binding."
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    (Original post by Connor27)
    He already did on the OP:

    "I've never seen one of these in my time in the House. It will have normal petition rules, with the exception that the petition will be binding, subject to CT approval. The referendum itself, as no bill has been submitted to implement such a change, will not be binding."
    Ok, that's me being tired/drunk when reading Bills. Aye then, although this produces the perverse consequence that the govt will introduce a Bill which I hope to get a whip against.

    I'd also like agreement from yourself that this passing would not create a democratic/political imperative to vote in favour of such a Bill.
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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    Ok, that's me being tired/drunk when reading Bills. Aye then, although this produces the perverse consequence that the govt will introduce a Bill which I hope to get a whip against.

    I'd also like agreement from yourself that this passing would not create a democratic/political imperative to vote in favour of such a Bill.
    Sure, you can whip your own party whatever way you like if 'yes' wins, I'm just eager to have the debate see how this referendum campaign goes.
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    (Original post by Connor27)
    Sure, you can whip your own party whatever way you like if 'yes' wins, I'm just eager to have the debate see how this referendum campaign goes.
    I want confirmation that you won't use 'it's undemocratic' as an argument against voting against such a Bill if this referendum passes.
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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    I want confirmation that you won't use 'it's undemocratic' as an argument against voting against such a Bill if this referendum passes.
    I guarantee that I personally will not use that term in such a way.

    EDIT: this is like getting blood out of a stone...
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    (Original post by Connor27)
    I guarantee that I personally will not use that term in such a way.

    EDIT: this is like getting blood out of a stone...
    If you've tried making any kind of deal with Nigel Farage MEP, you'd understand why I'm reticent about immediately trusting a relative newbie to MHoC without making everything super-super-transparent and triple-checking everything.
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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    If you've tried making any kind of deal with Nigel Farage MEP, you'd understand why I'm reticent about immediately trusting a relative newbie to MHoC without making everything super-super-transparent and triple-checking everything.
    Is there a story here?
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    (Original post by ByronicHero)
    Is there a story here?
    Oh, he's just done so much **** that nobody trusts him. He keeps trying to 'win' MHoC and as a result has basically done the impossible: losing MHoC.
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    (Original post by Connor27)
    I would argue it's only lasted that long because of constant evolutionary reforms thanks to the organic nature of the constitution; for example giving the poor a vote; giving women the vote; giving MPs a salary to allow for working class MPs etc etc.

    More Direct Democracy is the next stage in that evolution, its already started: look at all the referendums in Cameron's terms, would you call him a despot or a demagogue?
    Cameron miscalculated. His referendums weren't because he believed they were the best forms of democracy, they were what he deemed sure-fire ways to quieten dissent, and they backfired leading to his resignation. Not exactly a ringing endorsement. I'm sure Cameron regrets his choice
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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    Oh, he's just done so much **** that nobody trusts him. He keeps trying to 'win' MHoC and as a result has basically done the impossible: losing MHoC.
    I see.

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    (Original post by Connor27)
    Right ok, Saracen's Fez, can the referendum question be amended to this please?

    (There's honestly no difference in the meaning here, so if that's your only demand to vote aye, then by all means you can have it.)
    This will take place when the petition goes to vote.
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    (Original post by Quamquam123)
    According to the GD, a member of the Community Team will serve as the returning officer and I presume this would involve a Mass PM. If this is not the case, then I might change my mind.

    Saracen's Fez - please can you clarify this for me?
    There are no rules regarding mass PMs at referendums, so this will be a call for the CT member and the new speaker to make.
 
 
 
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