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Nicola Sturegon says second referendum is closer for Scotland Watch

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    (Original post by Sephiroth)
    All hot air.

    Sturgeon whines about the UK leaving the EU single market and calls it economically catastrophic then wants to leave the UK single market with independence - a country where 64% of its exports go.

    Scotland will be in ruins if they leave. They won't be allowed to join the EU as Spain will veto it and the rest of the UK won't want to give them a free trade deal either.

    The thing is if a vote does happen it is likely to be a win for leavers as anti establishment politics is the new norm. I am just glad I live in England and don't have to worry about this.

    But back to my first point - it won't happen. Democracy isn't constantly rerunning a vote until you get what you want and what Sturgeon is suggesting is anti democratic. The UK government won't allow it.
    Given the scenario we are in was covered by the SNP manifesto, that is what democracy is about.
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    (Original post by Drewski)
    It's not though.

    You wouldn't be in the EU, you'd need to apply to become an EU member state in your own right, a process which could take a decade and is likely to be vetoed by Spain anyway.
    So, because you don't have the approval of all 27 member nations, you don't get in.

    You've then got a £15bn deficit in your budget with no way of recouping it without substantially raising taxes. Oil isn't worth anything like what it used to be, so that deficit is likely even bigger in the coming years.

    You're no longer affiliated with the nation that accounts for ~70% of your trade, so you need to arrange a trade deal with them, something which could take a couple of years at best.

    Through the majority in the parliament you effectively become a one party state, something which clearly has never gone wrong before...


    And you wonder why people don't think it's a good idea?
    Nail, head, hit. As a Scot, the Nats naive romanticism about 'freedom' embarrasses me.
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    I'm not at all familiar with the ins and outs of this. Why would Spain veto any future Scottish membership of the EU?
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    (Original post by markova21)
    I'm not at all familiar with the ins and outs of this. Why would Spain veto any future Scottish membership of the EU?
    Not wanting anything that might set a precedence over Catalan independence
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    (Original post by viffer)
    Nail, head, hit. As a Scot, the Nats naive romanticism about 'freedom' embarrasses me.
    Really? Only this year the majority of the UK voted for freedom.

    What's wrong with freedom? How much of devolution would you roll back?
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    (Original post by viffer)
    Not wanting anything that might set a precedence over Catalan independence
    Ah I see. Thanks.
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    (Original post by Quady)
    Really? Only this year the majority of the UK voted for freedom.

    What's wrong with freedom? How much of devolution would you roll back?
    I have no inherent issue with devolution of powers over things. In fact, I agree with it. However, it seems to whoosh over some people's heads that they don't want to be dictated to by a Westminster Government they didn't vote for but wish to be dictated to by a Bruxelles Government they cannot vote for. Way to go!
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    (Original post by L i b)
    That's absolute piffle. Had Scotland become an independent state in March 2016 as the SNP proposed, it would have been immediately outside of the EU. Had it wished to apply, sure it could have given it a go - but it would be an accession state. I think losing the numerous benefits the UK has in the EU - our rebate, our cast-iron opt-out on the single currency and so on - would've made joining the EU as a new country a rather unappealing concept.

    There's the struggle here. You're asking people to leave a more inclusive, democratic union where Scotland benefits from fiscal sharing from other parts of the country, where we have three centuries of history and where we do the vast majority of our trading. For what? To join a less democratic, more distant and less desirable union with a range of countries we have far less in common with, where we would have to be a net financial contributor. That's hardly going to win votes.

    I was a strong Remain voter. I like the European ideal, but have grave questions over its direction and some of the fundamentals like the Euro. I think the lack of transparency and blunt refusal of the European institutions to countenance differentiation or flexibility is making it weak and brittle. Despite that, I still support it. Yet if anyone asked which union is the most important for Scotland, the answer is blindingly obvious: the UK.
    Naturally you have your view, but taking exactly the same points you can argue for leave. Basically it comes down to whether you want to be part of a union.

    You call out democracy, but it's very unclear how the UK is more democratic than the EU. This isn't a balanced union, England has 80% of the voting rights.

    I'm not entirely sure how you can argue currency union with the rUK is better than the Euro. Personally my view would be for the Scottish pound so we have monetary policy set for Scotland.

    Fiscal sharing causes arguments both sides of the border depending who is winning at the time.
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    (Original post by viffer)
    I have no inherent issue with devolution of powers over things. However, it seems to whoosh over some people's heads that they want to sever ties with a Westminster Government they didn't vote for but wish to retain/obtain ties with a Bruxelles Government they cannot vote for. Way to go!
    Sure, but a free Scotland could choose. Currently we can't. There's no knowing if an independent Scotland would apply to join the EU.
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    (Original post by Quady)
    Basically it comes down to whether you want to be part of a union.
    'A' union? See my previous comment about governance by Westminster and Brussels
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    To everyone who says we will never get into the EU, it was looking likely (albeit until recently) that Turkey could get in. I'm sure we would be a much better member than them!!

    (Original post by Quady)
    Naturally you have your view, but taking exactly the same points you can argue for leave. Basically it comes down to whether you want to be part of a union.

    You call out democracy, but it's very unclear how the UK is more democratic than the EU. This isn't a balanced union, England has 80% of the voting rights.

    I'm not entirely sure how you can argue currency union with the rUK is better than the Euro. Personally my view would be for the Scottish pound so we have monetary policy set for Scotland.

    Fiscal sharing causes arguments both sides of the border depending who is winning at the time.
    I totally agree with the Scottish pound idea - the pound Stirling
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    (Original post by Quady)
    Sure, but a free Scotland could choose. Currently we can't. There's no knowing if an independent Scotland would apply to join the EU.
    Not Scotland's decision anyway. They can and I think would apply, but (imho) they have as much chance of getting in as Morag fae <enter Scottish town of choice> has of becoming a member of Muirfield golf club. i.e. Hee haw buggar aw
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    (Original post by viffer)
    Not Scotland's decision anyway. They can and I think would apply, but (imho) they have as much chance of getting in as Morag fae <enter Scottish town of choice> has of becoming a member of Muirfield golf club. i.e. Hee haw buggar aw
    I meant choose to apply/choose to leave.
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    (Original post by viffer)
    'A' union? See my previous comment about governance by Westminster and Brussels
    A union doesn't exclude others, I was using it as a generic term.

    Yes, I didn't quite understand since one votes in members of the EU parliament. You're possibly referencing the commission?
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    Nicola Sturgeon should pipe down and accept that Scotland voted to be part of the UK and are now part of the UK. Should individual cities now start leaving England because their votes contradicted what the majority voted for?
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    (Original post by LeCroissant)
    Nicola Sturgeon should pipe down and accept that Scotland voted to be part of the UK and are now part of the UK. Should individual cities now start leaving England because their votes contradicted what the majority voted for?
    Can I just point out that one of the arguments for staying in the UK was that this would be the only way to stay in the EU? And look how that turned out.
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    (Original post by Science_Girl)
    Can I just point out that one of the arguments for staying in the UK was that this would be the only way to stay in the EU? And look how that turned out.
    So how is leaving the rUK now going to help with that?
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    The arguments for Scotland to leave the 6th most powerful nation in the world are dwindling as the months go by....

    You had your chance, you now remain a minority of butt hurt losers, who I have absolutely 0% respect for.

    And stop using the EU as an excuse for another referendum, it's not gonna happen.
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    I think there will be a second referendum and it will take place within a matter of months.

    On Tuesday the Supreme Court makes its Brexit ruling. Everyone has been concentrating on the Parliamentary Approval ruling, but that is a sideshow. The Government has already made provision for it.

    It is the ruling on the Scottish Parliament having to approve Brexit that matters. I am not a lawyer, but lawyers I know and respect tell me that it is going to be very hard for the Court not to rule in favour of the Scottish Government.

    This will cause constitutional chaos. We can have a general election to establish the popular will, but that won't help if Scotland votes to Remain and the rest of the UK for Brexit.

    I can't see any way forward but a second referendum. Either granting Scotland independence, back in the EU (if they will accept them) or the whole of the UK leaving the EU including Scotland, preserved within the Union.

    The other alternative is a reversal of Brexit for the whole UK. Staying within the EU because Scotland says no. But that might lead to the rest of the UK wanting to kick Scotland out, effectively! Imposing some form of second referendum. And can Sturgeon say no to that?

    Either way I think there will be second referendum. Who wins it of course, is another question.
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    (Original post by astutehirstute)
    I think there will be a second referendum and it will take place within a matter of months.

    Either way I think there will be second referendum. Who wins it of course, is another question.
    Keep on dreaming pal.

    Frankly I'm fed up of thugs vandalising my town again with your deceptive propaganda. If you think your beloved EU ref propaganda was false, your campaign take that to a whole new level!

    Enjoy getting beat again, I look forward to it.
 
 
 
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