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Why are you grateful for feminism? Watch

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    (Original post by shawtyb)
    im not. there a bunch of OTT man haters.
    if hitler only hit out at women, then feminists would be the equivilent
    You grossly misunderstand that there exist strands within feminism; you are lumping them all together in one homogeneous lump. Radical feminism doesn't represent feminism as a whole, to call feminists "a bunch of OTT man haters" shows ignorance and a severe lack of understanding.

    Not to mention that as a woman, to say "im not" grateful for feminism is to reject all the rights it has given you. I hope you don't vote. :lol:

    Of course, Hitler always has to make an appearance - right? Godwin's law. :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by SinsNotTragedies)
    Why are you getting so aggressive, why swear when we're discussing? You're getting very riled up and disproportionately so.
    sorry, I guess I can get passionate when we're talking about the relative justifications of the mutilations of defenseless little boys

    If you don't want to argue your side then that is fine, but don't expect me to 'look it up' when you can't be bothered to provide substance to your case.
    I was expecting this
    I'm only even responding now because you're not gibing me too much to respond to.
    in fact this really is going to have to be my last message because I have a **** tonne of uni reading - and it happens to be on feminism in case you'd be fascinated to know that: Ngaire Naffine's “women and the cast of legal persons”
    I'm assume that you do have time though. I'm not lying. if I'm lying - prove that I'm lying and I'll admit I'm lying. but I'm not. I know, you don't have a burden of proof- I do. but still: the evidence *is* out there.

    Why call a women a slut? It still makes no sense to shame sexually active women. The difficulty level makes no difference, sex is sex. :lol:
    I didn't say we should call women sluts. in fact I swear it's mostly women themselves that slut-shame. why would men slut-shame? men love sex. and usually girls don't tend to think "sex is sex", but it's fine that you do because at least you're taking a less culturally-relative stance like most women do (sorry it's true - I can't determine reality, I can only describe it.)


    I didn't imply that. Obviously not... :facepalm: I am saying that FGM is far more severe than its male counterpart, but that doesn't mean circumcision is morally right.
    again, severity means almost nothing here. it's the principle that we can violate the rights of boys but not girls. the fact that FGM is more severe is a side note that doesn't change the degree to which a right is or ought to be violated.


    I label myself as a feminist and I am in no way a misandrist. You will be hard pressed to go out and find a feminist who is a misandrist; the media gives far too much attention to the types of feminists who are difference feminists.

    Neither of us are going to change our views so this is the last of it tbh.
    I wouldn't be hard pressed at all, actually. hence the stats I quoted.
    to be hones,t a woman who thinks that there's a rape culture today is kind of saying that male sexuality (in the sense of complimenting women or cat calling) is wrong, so I'd be hard pressed not to see *you* as somewhat misandrist. otherwise I'd have to be saying "you technically don't dislike men, you just dislike men when they act like men" - or else, what is "good" masculinity to you? is masculinity allowed to exist?
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    (Original post by AMGJ98)
    That's what you're for silly!

    Anyways, I'm grateful for it because it's making the world a better place, specifically for women in developing countries
    If you don't mind me asking, who is the person in your avi? May have found my doppelganger :O
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    sorry, I guess I can get passionate when we're talking about the relative justifications of the mutilations of defenseless little boys
    Believe me, I despise circumcision as much as you do. If we had more time I would gladly explain in far more depth but we both have uni reading to do so, honestly, I accept that you shouldn't have to provide statistics either.

    again, severity means almost nothing here. it's the principle that we can violate the rights of boys but not girls. the fact that FGM is more severe is a side note that doesn't change the degree to which a right is or ought to be violated.
    I know this, but I am justifying a need for feminism on grounds of equal rights - we can't expect a societal restructure all at once.

    I wouldn't be hard pressed at all, actually. hence the stats I quoted.
    to be hones,t a woman who thinks that there's a rape culture today is kind of saying that male sexuality is wrong, so I'd be hard pressed not to see *you* as somewhat misandrist. otherwise I'd have to be saying "you technically don't dislike men, you just dislike men when they act like men" - or else, what is "good" masculinity to you? is masculinity allowed to exist?
    No, that is wrong. My definition of 'rape culture' refers to victim blaming, I have no idea what you're insinuating about male sexuality - but aggressiveness and non consent in obtaining carnal pleasures is wrong. :dontknow:

    Masculinity can be anything a man wants, yes, a man can be 'manly' in the stereotypical sense if he wants - private lives and all that.

    I find it insulting and ridiculous you see me as misandrist. That is by far not the case at all, but I suppose you don't know the majority of my views and don't have the time or inclination to understand.
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    (Original post by SinsNotTragedies)
    Believe me, I despise circumcision as much as you do.
    ehhhh. probably not - you were only just a moment ago kind of brushing over it saying that it's "not as bad" when that's like saying "torture via electrocution isn't as bad as torture via drowning"
    too extreme of a comparison? really? we're talking about mutilating the genitals of children...

    I know this, but I am justifying a need for feminism on grounds of equal rights - we can't expect a societal restructure all at once.
    what are you talking about?
    we could ban MGM tomorrow no problem at all
    and who cares if muslims or jews complain? who honestly gives a damn?
    they're wrong and they should know that.

    No, that is wrong. My definition of 'rape culture' refers to victim blaming, I have no idea what you're insinuating about male sexuality - but aggressiveness and non consent in obtaining carnal pleasures is wrong. :dontknow:
    that's not "rape". that's not a culture either.
    who talked about non-consent to sex? ...whaaat?
    are you one of those people who thinks that if a girl voluntarily drinks alcohol that means that she'll never be ableto consent to sex? how empowering towards women. as soon as they drink, they become infants...
    this is what I hate about modern feminism - it is essentialist. it is conservative to the stereotypes of women being more emotional and less rational than men. this is why a lot of feminist legal academics say that women are less like "persons" than men, because "person" in the law refers to a person who is, for one thing, rational. if feminists are saying that women become irrational via alcohol, in a legal sense, then they are saying that women are less like "persons" than men are whom do not lose that *legal* rationality via alcohol because they'd still be held to account for their acts while voluntarily drunk. feminists need to get rid of this essentialism because it is the same essentialism that has hindered them as a gender for thousands of years. you cannot put women into that kind of "fragile, delicate, emotional" category because they will mean that they BECOME fragile, delicate and emotional. if you reinforce the expectation, women will conform to it.

    Masculinity can be anything a man wants, yes, a man can be 'manly' in the stereotypical sense if he wants - private lives and all that.
    so there's no idea of an acceptable "masculinity" to you. wow.
    but gender is a collective identity - you cant individualise "male-ness".

    I find it insulting and ridiculous you see me as misandrist. That is by far not the case at all, but I suppose you don't know the majority of my views and don't have the time or inclination to understand.
    I don't have to time to go back and forth, so no
    and your outrage is more to do with the fact that you yourself are saying that there is a rape culture yet at the same time you're trying to imply that you're this mere "liberal" or "first wave" feminism. no. you're clearly somebody who thinks a patriarchy exists. which means that men are controlling women in society. so that means men are the enemy. ergo, men are bad people, just like rads suggest.
    I do wish you would understand that culture isn't anything more than a construct. these kinds of structure sin society, such as the slut-stud dichotomy are entirely based on the choices and views of individuals. they don't *control* individuals, they merely persuade them, and they can be ignored. in terms of liberalism, they would be irrelevant and not something that invades the liberties of women. that's not to say that it's bad that there's a "slut-shaming" culture (as opposed to a rape culture) - women themselves I feel need to stop doing it because they are the prime perpetuators. only women will tell a woman that something is "too slutty", imo. most men like sluts (unless they're going out with one, obviously)
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    (Original post by lw8)
    If you don't mind me asking, who is the person in your avi? May have found my doppelganger :O
    lmaoooooo it's me
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    (Original post by AMGJ98)
    lmaoooooo it's me
    Wow haha, good looking lad
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    I cba with reading through all the posts on here or hanging around for the inevitable flame-wars but here's my contribution:

    I'm grateful for the fact that my former secondary school headteacher is a feminist, and that she was part of my life when I was growing up. She wasn't all loud and in your face about it, and to many people who had less encounters with her, she may not have seemed like the type of person who would be a feminist (she's a religious sister). She definitely is a feminist though and through what she used to say in assemblies at school, you could tell it was something she firmly believed in.

    More than anything or anyone else at that early stage of teenage years, she taught me that who I could become and what I could do with my life did not depend on characteristics such as my gender, where I was born, my race/ethnicity, or anything like that. She was very much of the opinion that yes, there's a glass ceiling, but it's our job to try and break it!

    This was hugely influential for me, and proved a very useful mantra when I came up against misogyny at uni. People expected me to just lie down and take **** just because I was female and younger, and they were male and older and in a position of authority. But because of the example of my headteacher, I knew better than to do what I was told "because that's the way it is/has always been/should be". So I fought back, very hard, and did not allow that person to belittle me.

    Had I not had my headteacher's feminism firmly in my mind when I had to have these battles, Lord alone knows what the outcome could have been for me :headfire:

    So YAY for feminism
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    ehhhh. probably not - you were only just a moment ago kind of brushing over it saying that it's "not as bad" when that's like saying "torture via electrocution isn't as bad as torture via drowning"
    too extreme of a comparison? really? we're talking about mutilating the genitals of children...
    what are you talking about?
    we could ban MGM tomorrow no problem at all
    and who cares if muslims or jews complain? who honestly gives a damn?
    they're wrong and they should know that.
    that's not "rape". that's not a culture either.
    who talked about non-consent to sex? ...whaaat?
    are you one of those people who thinks that if a girl voluntarily drinks alcohol that means that she'll never be ableto consent to sex? how empowering towards women. as soon as they drink, they become infants...
    so there's no idea of an acceptable "masculinity" to you. wow.
    but gender is a collective identity - you cant individualise "male-ness".
    I don't have to time to go back and forth, so no
    and your outrage is more to do with the fact that you yourself are saying that there is a rape culture yet at the same time you're trying to imply that you're this mere "liberal" or "first wave" feminism. no. you're clearly somebody who thinks a patriarchy exists. which means that men are controlling women in society. so that means men are the enemy. ergo, men are bad people, just like rads suggest.
    I do wish you would understand that culture isn't anything more than a construct. these kinds of structure sin society, such as the slut-stud dichotomy are entirely based on the choices and views of individuals. they don't *control* individuals, they merely persuade them, and they can be ignored. in terms of liberalism, they would be irrelevant and not something that invades the liberties of women. that's not to say that it's bad that there's a "slut-shaming" culture (as opposed to a rape culture) - women themselves I feel need to stop doing it because they are the prime perpetuators. only women will tell a woman that something is "too slutty", imo. most men like sluts (unless they're going out with one, obviously)
    :facepalm:
    I was using FGM as an example initially that there is a need for feminism, it is symptomatic of abuse against females and it is worse than the male equivalent because it is far more debilitating to the victim.

    I wouldn't care who was offended either, whatever.

    No offence but if you're going to say I am a misandrist/radical feminist then I am going to say that you are being a full-blown retard. Internet anti-feminists like you always default to accusing people of being man haters when they are not.

    I do not subscribe to the view that there is a patriarchy in the Western world. But there are patriarchies in the world. I don't believe the wage gap has any weight, women choose different professions and people are paid according to merit in society today. Just in case you do not get the message:

    I do not think that men are the enemy in any way, shape, or form; I am not a misandrist.

    To emphasise feminism is not to put down men.
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    do you generally use anecdotes over evidence? it's not like I can look into a crystal ball and see all these things you've described, nor can I put them into a larger societal context. only stats (evidence) can do that. I could give you a huge stream of personal anecdotes but they wouldn't prove my point at all.
    While it's true that using anecdotal evidence to prove a social issue at large is unpersuasive, there is sufficient research that girls/women contribute less in class than boys/men in school/university. There was a study recently on 5000 first-year biology students - a subject where there are more women than men on average - which found lower verbal participation by female students. Unlike the other poster I wouldn't call it a "big time" problem, only a hangover from sexism of the last century which will increasingly improve now that feminism has succeeded. But it does exist according to the studies.

    As for my own experience teaching first-year seminars, my only observation is that no-one wants to speak at all!
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    (Original post by SinsNotTragedies)
    :facepalm:
    I was using FGM as an example initially that there is a need for feminism, it is symptomatic of abuse against females and it is worse than the male equivalent because it is far more debilitating to the victim.


    again, why are you focusing on such an insignificance? I know it's worse for girls, that doesn't mean we should focus on it more when it's illegal now :| in that case, when will it EVER be appropriate to focus on MGM? and when ever is it going to be recommended to FOCUS on its illegality in law?! how regularly do you consider MGM occurring compared to FGM in this country? is it in proportion then? I doubt it! I HIGHLY doubt it. in this case, we ought to focus our attention on SLAVERY over more momentary violence/coercion seeing as slavery just happens to be worse even if unlikely!

    I wouldn't care who was offended either, whatever.

    No offence but if you're going to say I am a misandrist/radical feminist then I am going to say that you are being a full-blown retard. Internet anti-feminists like you always default to accusing people of being man haters when they are not.
    wow, that's not very politically correct, is it?
    if you're allowed to call me "retard" for being stupid (as you claim), why can't I call sexually promiscuous women "sluts"?
    one rule for you and another for others, right?

    I do not subscribe to the view that there is a patriarchy in the Western world. But there are patriarchies in the world. I don't believe the wage gap has any weight, women choose different professions and people are paid according to merit in society today. Just in case you do not get the message:
    wow, then I am genuinely surprised you think that when you believe in "rape" culture of all things.

    I do not think that men are the enemy in any way, shape, or form; I am not a misandrist.

    To emphasise feminism is not to put down men.
    then I'm sorry but you're going to have to address your confused understanding of the words "rape" and "culture"...
    and to emphasise one gender over another is obviously to the detriment of that other gender. that's why jim crow was racist, not just "emphasising whites".
    also, I can assure you, I know more about feminism than you. this is why I'm talking to you about it - because there are glaring problems you have in your accounts. i.e. rape culture. if we have a rape culture, we CERTAINLY have a "marital theft" culture as well, a female-driven martial theft culture no less. unless you're denying the effects of divorce and alimony upon male ex-husbands. which would be fairly amusing. we could also say that there's a "male imprisonment culture" because there is a MASSIVELY higher rate of men going to prison than women even with the same crime being committed, and in the same general contexts.
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    I'm grateful that feminism has moved on from being something exclusive to upper middle/upper class white women who actively bashed the right for black men getting the right before to vote (bc the best way to gain your basic human right is to deprive someone else of their's) to something that is inclusive to all despite race or gender (trans inclusiveness is better than men's tho; we really need to up our game when talking about issues men face such as hardly ever being taken seriously when they claim to be abused).
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    I'm grateful for feminism because it gives me plenty of ridiculous crap to make fun of on the internet.

    Keep doing what you're doing, ladies. The crazier, dumber and more hypocritical the better.
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    (Original post by macromicro)
    Unlike the other poster I wouldn't call it a "big time" problem, only a hangover from sexism of the last century which will increasingly improve now that feminism has succeeded. But it does exist according to the studies.
    Its understandable that you probably didn't read all of the posts I made earlier, but the 'big time problem' was not women being less vocal in classes, but rather sexism in society at large, and how it continues to have an impact on how men and women think, what is expected of them and what they feel free and safe to do and be.

    Also I wasn't really sure which anecdote of mine sleepysnooze was reacting to, since I referred to:
    - Research on the policing and reproduction of hypermasculinity among working class teenage boys
    - A survey on the different sports each gender found 'sexy' in those of the opposite gender (which revealed very strong stereotypical expectations from both sides)
    - The continued prevalence of sexual harrassment in bars, clubs and in student life generally
    - My childhood best friend being physically assaulted (and let off for it) by her male line manager when she outperformed him on a shared project
    - My own personal experiences of being treated negatively when I outperformed men in rock climbing, and when I displayed supposedly male traits such as assertion or confrontation (and seeing my male peers receive different responses when they behaved the same way)
    - Experiences of male friends of mine who were bullied and pressured for supposedly having 'soft' sides and for not conforming to certain gender norms
    - The prevalence of domestic violence

    Obviously this is before we even get on to many much more obvious and extreme issues like honour killings and the high amount of physical and sexual abuse within arranged marriages.
    I think many TSRers would like to think that cases like these don't represent the modern age or life in Britain, but researchers specialising in religion suggest that Europe is an exception to the global pattern, and that it remains the case that most humans in the world are religious or live within religious communities. And religion is on the rise.

    The point I'm trying to make is that sexism and gendered prejudices are not some kind of outdated relic from the past, but issues that continue to be reproduced and to exert influence around the globe. I do agree that things are better than they were in the past. But I can't share your optimism that 'we won' and that things will improve in this regard. The rise of far right populism, and recent changes in social attitudes demonstrate that many people seem to have missed or rejected the point.

    Acknowledging that sexism is still a harmful element operating in our culture doesn't mean saying that it's *the* most important element. But dismissing it's existence, as many on TSR seem keen to do, is incorrect and harmful. And many lives - male and female - are still very negatively affected by it.
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    (Original post by SinsNotTragedies)
    You grossly misunderstand that there exist strands within feminism; you are lumping them all together in one homogeneous lump. Radical feminism doesn't represent feminism as a whole, to call feminists "a bunch of OTT man haters" shows ignorance and a severe lack of understanding.

    Not to mention that as a woman, to say "im not" grateful for feminism is to reject all the rights it has given you. I hope you don't vote. :lol:

    Of course, Hitler always has to make an appearance - right? Godwin's law. :rolleyes:
    well maybe if they manifested themselves as something other then radicals, then maybe the rest of the world would hear something better about them then just the ridiculous side of things
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    (Original post by Dandaman1)
    I'm grateful for feminism because it gives me plenty of ridiculous crap to make fun of on the internet.
    Keep wasting your life doing that and the feminists can get to business of destroying the patriarchy.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    Keep wasting your life doing that and the feminists can get to business of destroying the patriarchy.
    By complaining about the air conditioning
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    (Original post by Craghyrax)
    I think many TSRers would like to think that cases like these don't represent the modern age or life in Britain, but researchers specialising in religion suggest that Europe is an exception to the global pattern, and that it remains the case that most humans in the world are religious or live within religious communities. And religion is on the rise.
    The UK is atheist by majority and the cases you highlight certainly don't represent life in Britain nor the West as a whole. This isn't simply what "TSRers would like to think" - this is objectively true. Honour killings and arranged marriages are almost exclusively Islamic and rare in the West. Religion is "on the rise" only outside the West (and only due to high birth rates of Muslims; all other religions are declining globally) and it is being continually diluted and reformed. Even if, hypothetically, all religions were on the rise, they have been reformed to the degree that new generations of theists today are incomparable to theists of a century ago (including Muslims but to a much lesser extent).

    (Original post by Craghyrax)
    The point I'm trying to make is that sexism and gendered prejudices are not some kind of outdated relic from the past, but issues that continue to be reproduced and to exert influence around the globe. I do agree that things are better than they were in the past. But I can't share your optimism that 'we won' and that things will improve in this regard. The rise of far right populism, and recent changes in social attitudes demonstrate that many people seem to have missed or rejected the point.
    Feminism has succeeded in so far as our rights are equal, awareness is at its peak, sexism is heavily socially derided, and theistic sexist dogma has been reversed in the West. It's very clear (as the study itself concludes) that the lower female class participation is not due to any direct sexism, e.g. by professors, rather it is only a much less significant hangover from the last century (where direct sexism was commonplace) and will continually decrease due to the success of feminism. Hence my post.

    (Original post by Craghyrax)
    Acknowledging that sexism is still a harmful element operating in our culture doesn't mean saying that it's *the* most important element. But dismissing it's existence, as many on TSR seem keen to do, is incorrect and harmful. And many lives - male and female - are still very negatively affected by it.
    I posted a study demonstrating its existence so of course I agree sexism exists, however people do not generally think that sexism is non-existent, only that it has been sufficiently reduced to the point that we are now dealing with the aftermath from the last century, most apparent in generational differences and sub-conscious rather than explicit sexism. I tend to agree with those commentators who argue that feminism has now run its course in the West, succeeding as it has in dramatically changing views on women relative to the last century, and that collective gender equality ought to now be our focus not separate movements for men and women.
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    (Original post by macromicro)
    Honour killings and arranged marriages are almost exclusively Islamic and rare in the West.
    Firstly, arranged marriage and honour killings are absolutely not on the same level - are you thinking of forced marriage, perhaps? Secondly, 'Islamic' isn't a catch-all term for all non-Western religions - arranged marriage is a culturally common concept in South Asia, so more likely to be common in e.g. Hindu families than Islamic ones.
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    (Original post by Becca-Sarah)
    Firstly, arranged marriage and honour killings are absolutely not on the same level - are you thinking of forced marriage, perhaps? Secondly, 'Islamic' isn't a catch-all term for all non-Western religions - arranged marriage is a culturally common concept in South Asia, so more likely to be common in e.g. Hindu families than Islamic ones.
    Who said they were on the same level? I was responding to Craghyrax's post which refers to "extreme issues like honour killings and the high amount of physical and sexual abuse within arranged marriages." They're not my examples, they're hers.

    With respect to your second point, I was specifically talking about the West, where those cases are both rare and almost exclusively Islamic.
 
 
 
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