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What Do You Think of Peter Hitchens? Watch

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    (Original post by Cato the Elder)
    It is in our interests to ensure that our American friends, who share our values and our language, gain ascendancy in that region, at the expense of other powers.
    Yes lets serve our colonial masters well. We should have stayed out of Iraq and let the Americans bleed for their imperial possession, not a single drop of British blood should have been wasted in Afghanistan or Iraq.
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    (Original post by demaistre)
    Yes lets serve our colonial masters well. We should have stayed out of Iraq and let the Americans bleed for their imperial possession, not a single drop of British blood should have been wasted in Afghanistan or Iraq.
    You still don't get it.

    Our interests are aligned with those of America's. We were fighting in our interests as much as in theirs. It was in the interests of the entire civilised world for an unpredictable Arab warlord to be removed from power and for a pliant, pro-Western government to be installed which would guarantee us a stable oil supply and more political influence in the Middle East, and would prevent any Arab country from getting WMDs.
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    (Original post by Cato the Elder)
    You still don't get it.

    Our interests are aligned with those of America's. We were fighting in our interests as much as in theirs. It was in the interests of the entire civilised world for an unpredictable Arab warlord to be removed from power and for a pliant, pro-Western government to be installed which would guarantee us a stable oil supply and more political influence in the Middle East, and would prevent any Arab country from getting WMDs.
    The First Gulf War was about securing the Western world's oil supply from a middle eastern dictator who was not a US puppet, America could have done that without our help. The Second Gulf War was American Imperialism pure and simple, also guarantee American influence not ours. Saddam's ramshackle army was not a threat, Iraq couldn't develop WMDs.
    You are arguing for us to support American interest, not Britain's.
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    Allowing a country to hold free and fair elections isn't imperialism. Despite plenty of mistakes the war in Iraq is a success that in the long run has made the world a better place. For instance see:,https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2016/iraq

    And compare with 1999- although far from perfect progress is being made that I think would have been hugely unlikely had it been left to its own devices.

    That said the cost has been staggering ($)
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    (Original post by Cato the Elder)
    I think that he is an insightful, intelligent and admirable human being. I am horrified when I read on the Internet people saying things like "The wrong brother died". Both Peter and Christopher have had great insights to contribute to humanity and they are both deserving of attention and respect.

    However, I do believe him to be too much of a boring pessimist. This stems from his rather repugnant Christian morality, which gives him very little attachment to this earthy life and therefore gives him less motivation to do something positive in the here and now. Peter has quite simply given up on achieving his perfect society (a rejection of utopianism that stems, I believe, from his rejection of Marxism, which in that context is laudable), but as a result he has cast his gaze heavenward, which is preposterous as there is no heaven and nowhere worth living outside this earth (to our scientific knowledge, at least). As such he casts nothing but disparagement and derision on sociological and political developments occurring at the present time. His youth now over, I guess he feels that the exciting part of his life is over, and that there is no longer any point dedicating himself to a project of humanistic self-improvement, which is disappointing.

    I believe that if he rejected this absurd, Christian, Platonic outlook on life and embraced a more positive, Nietzschean or Voltairean outlook, or a Weltanschauung similar to that of his brother, that he would feel more motivation to work towards the transformation of this degenerate species of ours. We might not achieve perfection, but that is besides the point, as perfection would give us nothing more to perfect. Life is flux, change and growth, and that is good and noble.

    So yes, a bit less Burke and a bit more Nietzsche is what I would recommend.
    My admire both brothers for the convictions they have in their beliefs. While I am an atheist i don't agree with your assessment of his christian morality. P. Hitchens views, appear to me at least, to be more to do with his conservatism than his christianity. You believe Peter (I'm not referring to Peter Hitchens as Peter because i know him personally, i do it to avoid confusion with Christopher) lacks motivation to do 'something positive in the here and now', I don't believe this is a fair assessment. As i have said his beliefs are rooted in Conservatism. The beliefs he holds; many of which i disagree with, seem alien to many people of our generation but shouldn't we appreciate the fact that his views would not seem peculiar to anyone of his parents' generation? I don't believe Peter Hitchens is inactive now by any means, he is a tireless advocate for change in our society on issues ranging from drugs to immigration.
    You also mention that Peter Hitchens is no longer 'dedicating himself to humanistic self-improvement', have you considered that Peter Hitchens' column and wider writings are an example of his dedication to humanistic endeavours? His ideal society is probably different from both your's and mine but does that mean that he is not striving to help society? I think we should challenge Hitchens' views as opposed to the man himself.

    We agree that there is 'nowhere worth living outside this earth', this i believe, and I imagine you do as well, is the primary reason for mutual respect and cooperation in the here and now.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Allowing a country to hold free and fair elections isn't imperialism. Despite plenty of mistakes the war in Iraq is a success that in the long run has made the world a better place. For instance see:,https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2016/iraq

    And compare with 1999- although far from perfect progress is being made that I think would have been hugely unlikely had it been left to its own devices.

    That said the cost has been staggering ($)
    Yep the absolute **** hole that Iraq has turned into is far better because they score better in a 'freedom' report.
    'Hey don't worry little Ahmed your whole family may have been killed by ISIS and your country is war ravaged, but hey these western liberals say you are more free yay!'
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    (Original post by demaistre)
    Yep the absolute **** hole that Iraq has turned into is far better because they score better in a 'freedom' report.
    'Hey don't worry little Ahmed your whole family may have been killed by ISIS and your country is war ravaged, but hey these western liberals say you are more free yay!'
    Can I ask you question?

    Do you think it was right to go to war with Nazi Germany? Or do you think we should have them to it?

    Also ISIS came from Syria which their own brutal dictator failed to crush. Now democratic Iraq is beating the crap out of them with our friends the Kurds.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Can I ask you question?

    Do you think it was right to go to war with Nazi Germany? Or do you think we should have them to it?

    Also ISIS came from Syria which their own brutal dictator failed to crush. Now democratic Iraq is beating the crap out of them with our friends the Kurds.
    Both world wars crippled the British Empire so no, we should have stayed out of both. WW2 left us bankrupt, crippled and indebted to the USA . Also we went to war apparently to stop a brutal dictator invading Poland...but oh wait we didn't attack the Soviet Union for doing the same thing.

    Iraq is only beating ISIS due to western intervention, and the rebellion in Syria has only gone on for so long due to western help, back when ISIS were part of the moderates remember?
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    (Original post by demaistre)
    Both world wars crippled the British Empire so no, we should have stayed out of both. WW2 left us bankrupt, crippled and indebted to the USA . Also we went to war apparently to stop a brutal dictator invading Poland...but oh wait we didn't attack the Soviet Union for doing the same thing.
    Fair enough. At least your reasoning is consistent and not part if the trendy faux left paradigm. (Which would also view the British empire as evil)

    Iraq is only beating ISIS due to western intervention, and the rebellion in Syria has only gone on for so long due to western help, back when ISIS were part of the moderates remember?
    I'd be inclined to agree to an extant. That said Iraq and certainly the Kurds are becoming much more self sufficent. I'm actually inclined to agree with Trump Re foreign policy that said I think there has been a lot of merit to liberating Iraq which is making progress.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Fair enough. At least your reasoning is consistent and not part if the trendy faux left paradigm. (Which would also view the British empire as evil)



    I'd be inclined to agree to an extant. That said Iraq and certainly the Kurds are becoming much more self sufficent. I'm actually inclined to agree with Trump Re foreign policy that said I think there has been a lot of merit to liberating Iraq which is making progress.
    I view the British Empire as one of the greatest achievements in human history so no, I don't view it as evil.
    I am not against war, I'm against war that is not done with the interests of the British nation at the forefront. I want ISIS annihilated, but the situation with ISIS wouldn't have arisen if we hadn't gone to war in Iraq in the first place. Once ISIS is annihilated what then? Continue to support the 'moderate' rebels against Assad? Help rebuild Iraq again? America is the world hegemon these are questions for them we shouldn't be involved.
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    (Original post by demaistre)
    I view the British Empire as one of the greatest achievements in human history so no, I don't view it as evil.
    I am not against war, I'm against war that is not done with the interests of the British nation at the forefront. I want ISIS annihilated, but the situation with ISIS wouldn't have arisen if we hadn't gone to war in Iraq in the first place. Once ISIS is annihilated what then? Continue to support the 'moderate' rebels against Assad? Help rebuild Iraq again? America is the world hegemon these are questions for them we shouldn't be involved.
    I'm proud of the good that Empire did too, but so proud of it that you'd let the Holocaust go on uninterrupted in the hopes of squeezing another five years out of it? What?

    Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
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    (Original post by jape)
    I'm proud of the good that Empire did too, but so proud of it that you'd let the Holocaust go on uninterrupted in the hopes of squeezing another five years out of it? What?

    Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
    Yes? I also assume you advocated for invading the PRC and The USSR for the millions they killed? Also this is assuming the Nazis wouldn't just carry on deporting the Jews as they had been doing.
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    (Original post by demaistre)
    Yes? I also assume you advocated for invading the PRC and The USSR for the millions they killed? Also this is assuming the Nazis wouldn't just carry on deporting the Jews as they had been doing.
    Deportation and systematic extermination are worlds apart. And yes, I would have committed the British Army to the counter-revolutionaries in the Russian Civil War and thrown Lenin and Trotsky and into cells.
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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)


    If you don't appreciate this, then it can't be explained to you.
    His brother's facial expression is hilarious.
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    (Original post by Cato the Elder)
    His brother's facial expression is hilarious.
    I've never seen this clip before, but I've heard Peter talk about it many times. Apparently the sound system wasn't working and if he wasn't sat down on the stairs he couldn't hear Christopher at all.
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    peter hitchens is a very mixed bag
    on some topics he is 100% correct
    but on some topics he is 100% incorrect
    it's also about 50/50 between his right and wrong ideas
    i.e. he thinks the EU, multiculturalism, enless immigration, etc are wrong (true)
    but then he thinks that we should be less secular and keep all drugs banned
    again: such a confused ideology. "freedom and democracy here but not there"

    christopher* hitchens was kind of similar with his weird mish-mash of different principles
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    (Original post by jape)
    Deportation and systematic extermination are worlds apart. And yes, I would have committed the British Army to the counter-revolutionaries in the Russian Civil War and thrown Lenin and Trotsky and into cells.
    They weren't systematically exterminating them when we declared war. We didn't go into WW2 to save the Jews of Europe.
    So would I, but I wouldn't have invaded the Soviet Union in the late 20s/30s where the Soviet regime was fully secure though, nor would I have advocated for the invasion of Red China when Mao was enacting his cultural revolution.
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    (Original post by demaistre)
    They weren't systematically exterminating them when we declared war. We didn't go into WW2 to save the Jews of Europe.
    Dachau concentration camp was opened in 1933, we didn't declare war until six years later. Regardless of whether we went to war to save European Jewry, that alone is enough reason to justify the Second World War retrospectively.

    So would I, but I wouldn't have invaded the Soviet Union in the late 20s/30s where the Soviet regime was fully secure though, nor would I have advocated for the invasion of Red China when Mao was enacting his cultural revolution.
    I would have attempted to damage the regimes through espionage though.
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    (Original post by jape)
    Dachau concentration camp was opened in 1933, we didn't declare war until six years later. Regardless of whether we went to war to save European Jewry, that alone is enough reason to justify the Second World War retrospectively.



    I would have attempted to damage the regimes through espionage though.
    They didn't start mass exterminations until the war was well under way, and that probably wouldn't have happened if we hadn't have gone to war. Either way the war ruined Britain, and led to the loss of hundreds of thousands of people.
 
 
 
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