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"Feminism just means equality for men and women" Watch

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    (Original post by h3rmit)
    If you want to be sure this is true, you need to test it empirically which requires giving women and men ultimate freedom to choose their roles and to try out all available roles so they can decidde what they prefer.
    Don't we already do that?

    Surely this is a reason for not having traditional gender roles (in which all the people in business would be men, hence giving more identical skill-sets and behaviours), but instead having a more even mix of sexes.
    It is a reason for not having that particular gender role, in which only men work professionally and all women stay at home, yes.

    I don't think it's a reason to do away with all gender roles in their entirety.
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    Don't we already do that?
    Pretty much, but not 100%. The imbalance in maternity and paternity leave, for example, partially maintains the "woman takes care of baby, man works" gender role


    It is a reason for not having that particular gender role, in which only men work professionally and all women stay at home, yes.

    I don't think it's a reason to do away with all gender roles in their entirety.
    What other traditional gender roles are there?
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    (Original post by Len Goodman)
    We don't need equality, we simply don't need it. Call me fuddy-duddy old Len, but I don't know why we can't just stick to traditional gender roles - they've been working successfully for thousands of years.
    Well, slavery lasted 245 years, surely that wasn't such a bad idea after all? /s
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    (Original post by h3rmit)
    Pretty much, but not 100%. The imbalance in maternity and paternity leave, for example, partially maintains the "woman takes care of baby, man works" gender role
    There's one gender role that we can't really get rid of though, namely the fact that women actually give birth to children, not men.

    You could give equal parental leave to either gender for the purposes of raising a child. But the portion of parental leave used for actually carrying the child (and managing all the associated medical issues) can only ever go to women in practice.

    What other traditional gender roles are there?
    There are lots of possible gender roles besides "men earn money and women don't".

    For example, according to traditional gender roles, a nurse, hair stylist or primary school teacher might be more likely to be female, whilst a firefighter, waste collector or engineer might be more likely to be male.

    Within the household, chores such as cooking and cleaning might be the woman's domain, whilst DIY and gardening might be the man's domain. Choosing the decor of the house might be left to the woman, whilst choosing the TV or stereo to buy might be left to the man.

    You already mentioned that women might devote more time towards looking after and raising children, whilst men might put more effort into earning money (even when men and women both work and look after their children to some extent).

    When boys and girls are allowed to choose to play with whatever toys they want, girls might gravitate more towards stuffed animals, dolls, dressing up etc. Whilst boys might be more interested in cars, action figures, video games etc.

    Certain styles of dress (e.g. colourful, decorative, revealing, long hair, makeup etc.) may be considered to suit women more, while other styles (plain, uniform, neat and standard) might suit men more.


    If these sorts of differences are the result of innate, natural diversity between men and women, I don't really see any need to suppress it.
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    When boys and girls are allowed to choose to play with whatever toys they want, girls might gravitate more towards stuffed animals, dolls, dressing up etc. Whilst boys might be more interested in cars, action figures, video games etc.

    Certain styles of dress (e.g. colourful, decorative, revealing, long hair, makeup etc.) may be considered to suit women more, while other styles (plain, uniform, neat and standard) might suit men more.


    If these sorts of differences are the result of innate, natural diversity between men and women, I don't really see any need to suppress it.
    Big if.

    I would wager they are not. On average perhaps there will be leanings, but I actually think what your parents prescribe (unconsciously or consciously) as well as once you start socializing more and see more of the world around you, that has a much bigger impact.
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    Big if.

    I would wager they are not. On average perhaps there will be leanings, but I actually think what your parents prescribe (unconsciously or consciously) as well as once you start socializing more and see more of the world around you, that has a much bigger impact.
    Personally, I would wager that they are.

    Due to differences in physique, brain structure, hormones etc. there seems to be good reason to expect there to be innate, natural differences in the roles and behaviours that men and women are adapted to. That would form the basis for the propagation of a culture in which gender roles are present.

    Certainly parents and culture will (consciously or unconsciously) condition you to be a certain way. But these parental beliefs and cultures must have originated from somewhere. Nobody ever told the first ever sexually reproducing creatures that "X is a womanly thing to do" or "Y is a manly thing to do", but it still worked out that way, not just in our own species but in hundreds of others too.

    The experiment for "what happens when a child is raised in a perfectly neutral way" has already been done millions of years ago, and we're seeing the result.
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    Personally, I would wager that they are.

    Due to differences in physique, brain structure, hormones etc. there seems to be good reason to expect there to be innate, natural differences in the roles and behaviours that men and women are adapted to. That would form the basis for the propagation of a culture in which gender roles are present.

    Certainly parents and culture will (consciously or unconsciously) condition you to be a certain way. But these parental beliefs and cultures must have originated from somewhere. Nobody ever told the first ever sexually reproducing creatures that "X is a womanly thing to do" or "Y is a manly thing to do", but it still worked out that way, not just in our own species but in hundreds of others too.

    The experiment for "what happens when a child is raised in a perfectly neutral way" has already been done millions of years ago, and we're seeing the result.
    You compare millions of years ago to now?
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    You compare millions of years ago to now?
    Certainly.

    Our environment changes much faster than evolution can keep up with. We may not need to hunt anymore, nor physically protect ourselves from predators etc. but remnants of those skills, behaviours and instincts still present within us.
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    Certainly.

    Our environment changes much faster than evolution can keep up with. We may not need to hunt anymore, nor physically protect ourselves from predators etc. but remnants of those skills, behaviours and instincts still present within us.
    And you are saying even though things have changed, you see no reason to adapt upbringing to reflect those changes?
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    Gendered toys are a very recent concoction designed to get maximum profits out of a single item. Girl lego, girl pens..what are the function of these that wasn't already apparent and enjoyable? Nope can't cope unless all my bricks are purple and I have a pen that can accommodate my dainty hands which struggle to hold man pens.

    It's also honestly really frustrating that equality keeps being reduced down to who mows the lawn and who cooks dinner. I give zero f-s on who does what chore as long as they are fairly evenly distributed taking into account any other factors like limited capacity through illness or disability - i.e. Dont use the amount of chores you do to scold and shame your partner because that is asshat thing to do.

    What bothers me is the government financially punishing women for keeping rape babies if they already have 2 children. Financially punishing them for not reporting their rape or not securing a conviction (this part is unclear) even though rape conviction rates from point of report are disgustingly low.

    What bothers me is the fact that a woman's right to bodily autonomy is still debated.

    What bothers me is that people still believe it is okay to act as if a piece of material a female may or not be wearing could incite rape and if that magic piece of material managed to force an innocent man to rape, well then it's the woman's fault. Not the prince of the material and certainly not the man.

    What bothers me is the very notion that men are helpless animals to a varying amount of biological feelings. That men don't have the power to overcome urges or to think. Nope. It is incredibly insulting to men to reduce them down this way.

    What bothers me is when men are treated like imbeciles who couldn't possibly be a good parent or partner. They've been "trained well" or they are super duper awesome to "babysit" their kids. Or repeated messages about how men fail if mum isn't there to make sure the kids have their clothes on the right way and idiot dad hasn't poisoned them.

    I could go on but won't. Things that don't bother me: having the door open for me, men doing dinner and me taking bin out. I have more important things to challenge than mundane tasks
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    The option for a man or woman to do something should always be available, whether all men or women are capable or not.

    That's all I have to say to "equal opportunities".
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    (Original post by לזייןהאיסלאם)
    While I agree with this statement, it's a little bit disingenuous as it ignores the important factor that conceptions of "equality" vary wildly. As an individualist feminist, my view of equality is very different to the types of feminists who think that equality is achieved with a censorious attitude.

    If equality simply means that men and women should be treated by the law equally then I think there would be very, very few who would consider themselves not to be feminists. But for many feminists, "equality" means something very different. Equality can mean censorious attitudes, banning speakers from university campuses (for more info, click here), pressuring publications or TV shows to stop or change, telling women how they should and shouldn't live, and shouting down opponents.

    This is why many people are wary of feminism, and why it is unfair to outcast anyone who doesn't identify as a feminist as someone who opposes equality. It may just be that they don't support the very skewed and specific ideas of equality which many of the most vocal circles of feminists endorse.
    When the post is top tier and the avatar is straight fire

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    (Original post by prazzyjazzy)
    The option for a man or woman to do something should always be available, whether all men or women are capable or not.

    That's all I have to say to "equal opportunities".
    What does option mean? Legally the option is available? You do realize that can mean very little.
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    (Original post by ~Tara~)
    What bothers me is the government financially punishing women for keeping rape babies if they already have 2 children. Financially punishing them for not reporting their rape or not securing a conviction (this part is unclear)
    No, they only have to report the rape to a "professional third party" such as their GP and "without a conviction or any judicial finding". The child tax credits are restricted to two children for everyone and rightly so.

    (Original post by ~Tara~)
    What bothers me is the fact that a woman's right to bodily autonomy is still debated.
    Because the baby's right to bodily autonomy is also important.

    (Original post by ~Tara~)
    What bothers me is the very notion that men are helpless animals to a varying amount of biological feelings. That men don't have the power to overcome urges or to think. Nope. It is incredibly insulting to men to reduce them down this way.
    Everyone knows men can think and make decisions and are not wild animals. We haven't been reduced down at all. This was nothing more than a pretence of defending men in order to insult them.

    (Original post by ~Tara~)
    I could go on but won't. Things that don't bother me: having the door open for me, men doing dinner and me taking bin out. I have more important things to challenge than mundane tasks
    So you're allegedly not bothered by door-holding and chores, but you are bothered by "more important things" like girl lego and pink pens? Girls do indeed have dainty hands on average relative to men; this isn't an equality issue nor is it up for debate. It's an anatomical fact. There will always be differences in male and female products due to our physical differences alone, and there is nothing wrong with that. Equality does not mean same.
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    That statement is as true as "ISIS means equality for all Muslims". LOL

    http://www.realsexism.com/
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    (Original post by _gcx)
    Well, slavery lasted 245 years, surely that wasn't such a bad idea after all? /s
    More like we have only been without slavery for around that length of time.
 
 
 
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