Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free

Article 50 decision imminent! Parliament could vote. Watch

    Offline

    11
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    There was a debate and a motion in the House at the start of WW2 - it was a complicated war which moved through a number of phases and the House approved later stages in votes and debates.
    World War Two was declared under the Royal Prerogative. This is from Hansard:

    Speech by the Prime Minister in the House of Commons on September 3, 1939.
    Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain to the House of Commons:
    When I spoke last night to the House I could not but be aware that in some parts of the House there were doubts and some bewilderment as to whether there had been any weakening, hesitation or vacillation on the part of His Majesty's Government. In the circumstances, I make no reproach, for if I had been in the same position as hon. members not sitting on this Bench and not in possession of all the information which we have, I should very likely have felt the same. The statement which I have to make this morning will show that there were no grounds for doubt. We were in consultation all day yesterday with the French Government and we felt that the intensified action which the Germans were taking against Poland allowed no delay in making our own position clear. Accordingly, we decided to send to our Ambassador in Berlin instructions which he was to hand at 9 o'clock this morning to the German Foreign Secretary and which read as follows:

    Sir, In the communication which I had the honour to make to you on 1st September, I informed you, on the instructions of His Majesty's Principal Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, that unless the German Government were prepared to give His Majesty's Government in the United 292Kingdom satisfactory assurances that the German Government had suspended all aggressive action against Poland and were prepared promptly to withdraw their forces from Polish territory, His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom would, without hesitation, fulfil their obligations to Poland. Although this communication was made more than 24 hours ago, no reply has been received, but German attacks upon Poland have been continued and intensified. I have, accordingly, the honour to inform you that unless not later than n a.m., British Summer Time, to-day, September 3rdsatisfactory assurances to the above effect have been given by the German Government and have reached His Majesty's Government in London, a state of war will exist between the two countries as from that hour.

    That was the final Note. No such undertaking was received by the time stipulated, and, consequently, this country is at war with Germany. I am in a position to inform the House that, according to arrangements made between the British and French Governments, the French Ambassador in Berlin is at this moment making a similar demarche, accompanied also by a definite time limit. The House has already been made aware of our plans. As I said the other day, we are ready.

    This is a sad day for all of us, and to none is it sadder than to me. Everything that I have worked for, everything that I have hoped for, everything that I have believed in during my public life, has crashed into ruins. There is only one thing left for me to do; that is, to devote what strength and powers I have to forwarding the victory of the cause for which we have to sacrifice so much. I cannot tell what part I may be allowed to play myself; I trust I may live to see the day when Hitlerism has been destroyed and a liberated Europe has been re-established.

    (Edit: To his last sentence he never did of course, dying in 1940).
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by astutehirstute)
    And sterling is down on the day against the dollar. (As I write this, it may change, obviously).
    The £ ended up rising against the $ and the FTSE not much different.
    Offline

    11
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    The £ ended up rising against the $ and the FTSE not much different.
    So in other words, despite your hyperbole yet another day on the markets really?
    • Community Assistant
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by astutehirstute)
    You seem to have a pretty sketchy understanding of the Royal Prerogative too.

    :rolleyes:
    Considering you've shown a sheer lack of basic knowledge and consistency on economics, it's bizarre to see you criticising others' level of intelligence.
    • Political Ambassador
    Online

    21
    ReputationRep:
    The clearest sign of a lack of confidence in the euro is banks shifting away from the euro back to the dollar for international transactions

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    11
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Considering you've shown a sheer lack of basic knowledge and consistency on economics, it's bizarre to see you criticising others' level of intelligence.
    I didn't criticise her intelligence, I wouldn't dare, she is clearly ferociously bright, I questioned her understanding of this constitutional matter.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Trinculo)
    Would this not be an argument for the blocking/ignoring of any future Scottish independence vote?
    Yes. Had Scotland voted yes, independence would need to be passed by both houses of parliament plus royal ascent. The only thing that isn't clear is whether it also needs to pass the Scottish parliament. But it's a bit different - Scottish independence would be done through repealing an act of parliament, something the FM or PM clearly couldn't do.

    (Original post by Rakas21)
    While your free to argue the merits of parliament being sovereign over the executive the idea that May is some tyrant trying to oppose her will is lunacy. Weakening of the royal perogative is a relatively modern thing and not entirely good in my opinion.

    At any rate, it's pointless. The Comrade has already confirmed the majority of his MP's will vote to exit.
    It's not pointless at all. This is an important case to establish the constitution. There isn't a codified one so all of these cases are very important.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by astutehirstute)
    World War Two was declared under the Royal Prerogative. This is from Hansard:

    Speech by the Prime Minister in the House of Commons on September 3, 1939.
    Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain to the House of Commons:
    When I spoke last night to the House I could not but be aware that in some parts of the House there were doubts and some bewilderment as to whether there had been any weakening, hesitation or vacillation on the part of His Majesty's Government. In the circumstances, I make no reproach, for if I had been in the same position as hon. members not sitting on this Bench and not in possession of all the information which we have, I should very likely have felt the same. The statement which I have to make this morning will show that there were no grounds for doubt. We were in consultation all day yesterday with the French Government and we felt that the intensified action which the Germans were taking against Poland allowed no delay in making our own position clear. Accordingly, we decided to send to our Ambassador in Berlin instructions which he was to hand at 9 o'clock this morning to the German Foreign Secretary and which read as follows:

    Sir, In the communication which I had the honour to make to you on 1st September, I informed you, on the instructions of His Majesty's Principal Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, that unless the German Government were prepared to give His Majesty's Government in the United 292Kingdom satisfactory assurances that the German Government had suspended all aggressive action against Poland and were prepared promptly to withdraw their forces from Polish territory, His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom would, without hesitation, fulfil their obligations to Poland. Although this communication was made more than 24 hours ago, no reply has been received, but German attacks upon Poland have been continued and intensified. I have, accordingly, the honour to inform you that unless not later than n a.m., British Summer Time, to-day, September 3rdsatisfactory assurances to the above effect have been given by the German Government and have reached His Majesty's Government in London, a state of war will exist between the two countries as from that hour.

    That was the final Note. No such undertaking was received by the time stipulated, and, consequently, this country is at war with Germany. I am in a position to inform the House that, according to arrangements made between the British and French Governments, the French Ambassador in Berlin is at this moment making a similar demarche, accompanied also by a definite time limit. The House has already been made aware of our plans. As I said the other day, we are ready.

    This is a sad day for all of us, and to none is it sadder than to me. Everything that I have worked for, everything that I have hoped for, everything that I have believed in during my public life, has crashed into ruins. There is only one thing left for me to do; that is, to devote what strength and powers I have to forwarding the victory of the cause for which we have to sacrifice so much. I cannot tell what part I may be allowed to play myself; I trust I may live to see the day when Hitlerism has been destroyed and a liberated Europe has been re-established.

    (Edit: To his last sentence he never did of course, dying in 1940).
    Not comparable. Her Majesty is the commander-in-chief, so obviously the Crown could declare wars.

    Even though The Queen is the source of all powers, her executive powers have been limited.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    There was a debate and a motion in the House at the start of WW2 - it was a complicated war which moved through a number of phases and the House approved later stages in votes and debates.

    WWI was in a different era, but the views of party leaders and their assent was sought. Maybe that war doesn't serve as a great example of when to not consult the House though. :rolleyes:
    The PM could still declare wars as long as HM is up for it. It's a different hat - it's hers as the commander-in-chief not the Council. In reality the PM will ask for permission because of both political (votes) and practical (waging wars require money) reasons.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by astutehirstute)
    I didn't criticise her intelligence, I wouldn't dare, she is clearly ferociously bright, I questioned her understanding of this constitutional matter.
    That's nice. As I said, the war and its conduct was debated heavily by Parliament, you are missing the fact that there had been debates up to that point on all aspects. Yes, in those days, there was no predefined decision that Parliament must be consulted prior to a declaration, but it was, at least to the extent that the consent of major party leaders was sought. Note that May was note even planning to do the latter.
    Online

    21
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    A starting point might be putting actual, you know, 'votes' before that parliament. we used to have them in the good old days before Brexo-mania.

    BTW, not being a lawyer, I have only a very sketchy understanding of your Factortame/Enabling Act point - please explain a little more?

    Factortame was never ending litigation about Spanish fishing boats and quota that decided that EU law had primacy over UK law. The principle whilst fully accepted and applied in respect of EU law in other cases, has really been considered as unique to EU law.

    The reasons for the Factortame decision were seen as a witches brew of partly flowing from Act of Parliament, partly from international treaty, partly EU law itself and partly from the participation of the government in the EU Council, without anyone being very keen on teasing out the underlying legal justification..

    If one reads paras 60-68 of Miller, it provides an analysis of Factortame which isn't unique to the European Union.

    So if Parliament enacted in the following terms:-

    1 All such rights, powers, liabilities, obligations and restrictions from time to time created or arising by or under the resolutions of the National Executive Committee of the Labour Party ("Socialist Resolutions"), and all such remedies and procedures from time to time provided for by or under the Socialist Resolutions, as in accordance with Socialist Resolutions are without further enactment to be given legal effect or used in the United Kingdom shall be recognised and available in law, and be enforced, allowed and followed accordingly.

    2 This Act shall be cited as "Jeremy's Law"'
    Parliament could repeal Jeremy's Law but unless and until it does so, resolutions of the NEC would have primacy over Acts of Parliament.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    Could someone explain this like I'm 5 ... like really simply ... what does this mean for Brexit?
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    The £ ended up rising against the $ and the FTSE not much different.
    It actually fell against the dollar.
    https://www.dailyfx.com/forex/market...-approval.html

    And the FTSE 100 also went up after Brexit and Trump's victory.
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by tippyto452)
    Could someone explain this like I'm 5 ... like really simply ... what does this mean for Brexit?
    It will go ahead, they don't have the numbers to block it. The only thing this will cause is a deeper division in the Labour Party.
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    That Gina woman is vile.

    Remoaners should accept the result they are beginning to sound like the SNP! Referendums and more referendums until they get the result they want.

    Liberal Democrats are repulsive.

    Disgraceful display.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by tippyto452)
    Could someone explain this like I'm 5 ... like really simply ... what does this mean for Brexit?
    I'm not quite sure if you're joking or not. But (unless I've completely got the wrong end of the stick) the Supreme Court has ruled that the Government cannot trigger Article 50 (leading to Brexit) without a vote for it in Parliament. So Parliament need to okay Brexit before it can happen. I (personally) doubt they'll vote against Brexit as they're supposed to represent the will of the people. But I could be wrong, I'm by no means an expert! Hope this helps.
    • Community Assistant
    • Political Ambassador
    Online

    20
    ReputationRep:
    Since the result was so close, I am not that surprised that the Parliament may be the one to decide whether to withdraw from the EU or not.

    Luckily, the Bremainers have a majority in Parliament, if I recall correctly, so if they vote on it, Brexit may be blocked. :daydreaming:
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    The 2 main backers of the legal bid weren't even born here!
    Offline

    11
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    That's nice. As I said, the war and its conduct was debated heavily by Parliament,you are missing the fact that there had been debates up to that point on all aspects. Yes, in those days, there was no predefined decision that Parliament must be consulted prior to a declaration, but it was, at least to the extent that the consent of major party leaders was sought. Note that May was note even planning to do the latter.
    You are welcome.

    To your point however, some behind the Speaker's Chair agreement is not Parliament enacting its sovereignty through a vote. It is the Executive exercising its Royal Prerogative.
    Online

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ManiaMuse)
    Health insurance? Do you mean travel insurance? If you're travelling to France then you really should have travel insurance anyway to cover emergency healthcare. An EHIC card doesn't even cover the complete cost of most emergency treatments in France. It just means that they will treat you in the first place and you have to pay a patient contribution (which you can then claim back off your travel insurance).

    How do you think UK citizens travel to parts of the world outside the EU and get access to emergency healthcare?
    Travel insurance will become more expensive to cover the portion currently covered by the EHIC.
 
 
 
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    What newspaper do you read/prefer?
    Useful resources
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.