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The state has exceeded its authority Watch

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    (Original post by Objectivism2017)
    Money came about originally in various forms which included shells and plant seeds in the past. Thousands of years ago temples controlled money because they lent people seeds to plant.
    This doesn't really answer how it came about. If you're saying that temples created it, that's hardly a non-state origin, as city temples were generally proto-state bureaucracies. To bring about such a universal equivalent as commodity money, you need i) such a dominating bureaucracy, and or ii) severe violence, or the threat thereof. Both are crucial ingredients in the creation of states

    In modern history goldsmiths issued money as depositary receipts for gold held. Private banks like Bank of Scotland and RBS issued fiat currency before there was any state Central Bank.
    But these take place in economies where state currencies already exist. Sure, the Scottish clearing banks issued (and still issue) their own money, but they'd be worthless if they weren't tied into the legal tender.

    For the record, the earliest IOU-style promissory tokens actually predated commodity money.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    This doesn't really answer how it came about. If you're saying that temples created it, that's hardly a non-state origin, as city temples were generally proto-state bureaucracies. To bring about such a universal equivalent as commodity money, you need i) such a dominating bureaucracy, and or ii) severe violence, or the threat thereof. Both are crucial ingredients in the creation of states



    But these take place in economies where state currencies already exist. Sure, the Scottish clearing banks issued (and still issue) their own money, but they'd be worthless if they weren't tied into the legal tender.

    For the record, the earliest IOU-style promissory tokens actually predated commodity money.
    Previously the Scottish banks issued money that had no underlying BoE sterling.

    There is a long historical precedent for private money and there are more than 4 thousand private money currencies in use today.

    See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_currency


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    Danish Danske Bank UK sterling notes.

    They are not legal tender but you can spend then and deposit them into a bank. It would be illogical not to accept a debt or profitable transaction with such a note seeing the intermediary that you use, C, your bank trusts that bank.

    https://www.danskebank.co.uk/SiteCol...notes-0613.pdf


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    (Original post by Objectivism2017)
    This is not a bunkum post, some kind of verbal spouting about some random thing in a newspaper for the sake of discussion.

    This is the most serious issue of our time. Recognise it.

    There has been for a very long time a defined baseline of the remit of the state. The Magna Carta hints at it. The U.S. Constitution defined it very carefully. A number of thinkers like Ayn Rand have talked about it.

    The purpose of the state is to provide basic critical and essential functions, and to prevent the use of force or coercion between parties.

    The western state today has put a massive collectivist ideology above the baseline. This ideology justifies the state being involved with your morals, your values, what you are allowed to say, consume, trade, coin our money, manipulate financial markets e.g. Set interest rates "for the common good", trying to make people "equal" with "affirmative action" and political correctness which almost everyone thinks is bonkers and results in a kind of doubletalk.

    Furthermore the state robs people of generally 30 to 70 percent of their income. The state is larger in proportion to the economy (more than half) than former Soviet Russia.

    What this is is state as an end in itself, a kind of bureaucratic industry that is largely a parasite that largely makes nothing.

    Don't be brainwashed and see what it happening here. The state is taking over everything.

    What we need to do is to decommission at least 75% of the state at this point.


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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    So everyone who is wealthy must, ipso facto, have worked hard for it?
    Are you trying to reason with an Objectivist? :hmmmm:
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    Are you trying to reason with an Objectivist? :hmmmm:
    Well it's kind of obvious isn't it, most people who work harder make more than people who don't work or just want to do the minimum.

    Does that really need to be debated?

    I guess it goes against collectivist philosophy which thinks we're all equal.




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    (Original post by Objectivism2017)
    Well it's kind of obvious isn't it, most people who work harder make more than people who don't work or just want to do the minimum.

    Does that really need to be debated?
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    Yeah that does need to be debated.

    You believe in the equality of reward relative to work. I don't.
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    (Original post by Objectivism2017)
    This is not a bunkum post, some kind of verbal spouting about some random thing in a newspaper for the sake of discussion.
    No, it comes across more as the sort of superficial, junior common room libertarianism that is so achingly common on this forum. So you read Atlas Shrugged and suddenly you're enamoured with libertarianism. Big whoop, most people do that when they're young and naive.

    There has been for a very long time a defined baseline of the remit of the state. The Magna Carta hints at it.
    Where? In which clause?

    The U.S. Constitution defined it very carefully.
    The US constitution is not an English constitutional document. Feel free to make reference to our political history, though.

    A number of thinkers like Ayn Rand have talked about it.
    Ayn Rand isn't considered a serious thinker by any serious thinker. That a few Young Republicans and Young Tories think highly of it doesn't impress me much.

    The purpose of the state is to provide basic critical and essential functions, and to prevent the use of force or coercion between parties.
    Wrong. There is no such thing as "the purpose of the state". "The state" is not some force of nature, with principles discoverable by empirical observation. The state is a human institution, and it is what we make it. At present, a majority of people agree that we should have a broadly mixed economy; private sector activity providing most goods and services, while government provides a social safety net, health, education and those services that cannot easily or properly be provided by the private sector (such the military, intelligence, police etc).

    That seems to me to be perfectly straightforward. Any attempt to assert some kind of objective, empirical basis for libertarian economic and political views is a puerile position that seeks to short-circuit the most vital part of political discourse and ideas; persuading others of its merit, being persuaded of the merits of other ideas and fusing them into new and better ideas.

    Asserting that there is some objective, unlaterable basis for a political idea means that the ideas stultify and pretty quickly become obsolete.
 
 
 
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