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    Yesterday, Trump affirmed a ban on entry of individuals from 7 "detrimental" countries: Iran, Iraq, Syria, Sudan, Somalia, Yemen and Libya. This ban seems incredibly disproportionate and misguided.

    Firstly, this doesn't really seem to be a "Muslim ban" - it doesn't include the country with the largest population of Muslims (India), nor the largest Muslim-majority country (Indonesia), nor Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan or Pakistan.

    Secondly, there have been very few terrorist attacks in the U.S. by Muslim refugees. Even fewer from the countries actually affected by this ban. When we look at the nationalities of the 9/11 hijackers we see that 15/19 were citizens of Saudi Arabia, none of the 9/11 hijackers were from the 7 countries subject to this ban. There are more Americans in ISIS than Iranians in ISIS.

    Thirdly, the threat of terrorism is clearly most likely to arise in the domestic context - that is to say, home grown terrorists. This ban does nothing to address this issue, other than further marginalise American Muslims and provide further fuel to ISIS/radical elements. Curiously, if we want to address the problem of home grown terrorism, dealing with Saudi Arabia's funding of Wahabbism across the globe might be a good place to start. Many intelligence agencies have recognised the problem of Saudi-funded radicalisation across the West, with both Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump acknowledging this problem (quote below) - yet, for some reason, what Trump called "the world's biggest funders of terrorism" (Saudi Arabia) did not manage to make it onto his "Muslim Ban", ostensibly designed to protect Americans from terrorism.

    Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump do not agree on much, but Saudi Arabia may be an exception. She has deplored Saudi Arabia’s support for “radical schools and mosques around the world that have set too many young people on a path towards extremism.” He has called the Saudis “the world’s biggest funders of terrorism.”
    https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/26/w...slam.html?_r=0
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-you...b_6501916.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a6763366.html

    Lastly, I think it is worth noting the pure insanity of the ban. This ban applies to green card holders who are legal residents of the U.S., that, upon returning from leaving the country (for holidays, etc), may find that they cannot reenter their home country.
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    I dont think it was designed to be effective or fair. It is headline grabbing and will go down well with his voters. Nobody (except the people it affects) cares.
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    (Original post by 999tigger)
    I dont think it was designed to be effective or fair. It is headline grabbing and will go down well with his voters
    Are we supposed to be pleased that the most powerful man in the world doesn't care about the effectiveness of his policies, as long as they sound good to his supporters (whom don't really understand the policy and why it doesn't make America safer like they might think it does)?

    Nobody (except the people it affects) cares.
    This is evidently not true. The very nature of the United States (and thereby, to some extent, the West as a whole) is at stake. There are over 1 million Iranian Americans, 250,000 Iraqi Americans, 150,000 Syrian Americans (etc) - all of these will be significantly affected by this ridiculous ban. Even if they have a green card and are legal residents of the U.S. they now cannot leave the U.S. for whatever reason, for fear that they will not be allowed to return to their country. This is utterly disgusting and unjustifiable.

    As Chuck Schumer (whom I am not a huge fan of) said: "There are tears running down the cheeks of the Statue of Liberty tonight."

    Tears are running down the cheeks of the Statue of Liberty tonight as a grand tradition of America, welcoming immigrants, that has existed since America was founded has been stomped upon.

    Taking in immigrants and refugees is not only humanitarian but has also boosted our economy and created jobs decade after decade... This is one of the most backward and nasty executive orders that the president has issued.
    http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefi...asty-executive
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    If Trump wants to "ban Muslims" or "prevent terrorism", why aren't Saudi Arabia, Turkey or the UAE included in his list of "detrimental" nations, you might ask.

    Coincidentally, Trump has substantial business interests in all these countries, but no business interests in the 7 included in the ban.

    In Saudi Arabia, for instance, Trump "lists companies on his FEC filing possibly related to a development project in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia’s second-biggest city, located outside Mecca: DT Jeddah Technical Services Manager LLC, DT Jeddah Technical Services Manager Member Corp., THC Jeddah Hotel Manager LLC and THC Jeddah Hotel Manager Member Corp".

    In the UAE, "The Trump Organization has a licensing and management deal" in Dubai with Damac Properties Dubai Co. for a golf course and luxury villas currently under construction. Another Trump-branded golf course, designed by Tiger Woods, is under development with Damac nearby".


    Yet Trump himself has referred to Saudi Arabia as "the world’s biggest funders of terrorism", so why hasn't he included them in his "Muslim ban"? Clearly he has decided that his own interests lie above those of the American people. So much for being a "man of the people".


    https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2..._medium=social
    https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/t...-of-conflicts/
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    Number of Americans killed by guns since 1968: 1,500,000


    Number of Americans killed by refugees since 1968: 5
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    If it wants to stop terrorists then it won't work.

    Terrorists visit strip clubs and drink before they blow themselves up.

    What's stopping them from faking their religious beliefs if it's for "the greater good"?
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    America is falling apart. The country is divided and Trump worries about banning Muslims and ignoring all the other jumpstarts in that dump.

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    (Original post by Cherub012)
    If it wants to stop terrorists then it won't work.

    Terrorists visit strip clubs and drink before they blow themselves up.

    What's stopping them from faking their religious beliefs if it's for "the greater good"?
    The ban is on all nationals from those 7 countries, so it doesn't matter if they say they are a homosexual Christian that is at threat of persecution, Trump isn't interested.


    As I mention above, if terrorism is the aim then (i) he chose the wrong countries (15/19 of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi citizens - and Saudi, curiously, are not included in the ban), and (ii) the focus should be on home grown terrorism (enacting anti-Muslim legislation and not checking Saudi-funded Wahabbism will not serve this end).
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    (Original post by Palmyra)
    The ban is on all nationals from those 7 countries, so it doesn't matter if they say they are a homosexual Christian that is at threat of persecution, Trump isn't interested.


    As I mention above, if terrorism is the aim then (i) he chose the wrong countries (15/19 of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi citizens - and Saudi, curiously, are not included in the ban), and (ii) the focus should be on home grown terrorism (enacting anti-Muslim legislation and not checking Saudi-funded Wahabbism will not serve this end).
    Ooops didn't know that. Agree with the rest.
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    (Original post by Palmyra)
    Number of Americans killed by guns since 1968: 1,500,000


    Number of Americans killed by refugees since 1968: 5
    Actually, that would be "number of people killed by people using guns".

    How many of them were suicides,accidental?

    Do you have the stats for US citizens murdered by foreigners/immigrants (legal or otherwise) for the same time period?

    Wouldn't want people thinking you cherry picked the stats to support your point would we?
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    It's security theatre; it'll make people feel safer.
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    (Original post by Moonstruck16)
    America is falling apart. The country is divided and Trump worries about banning Muslims and ignoring all the other jumpstarts in that dump.
    The thing is, even if we ignore the fact that this ban clearly does nothing to prevent terrorism, it's not even coherent as a ban on Muslims: it doesn't include the country with the largest population of Muslims (India), nor the largest Muslim-majority country (Indonesia), nor Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan or Pakistan.


    It's just him banning those from Muslim majority countries in which he doesn't have any business interests. Worth noting that this ban doesn't discriminate between, say, a Muslim Syrian or a Christian/Jewish Iranian. It doesn't matter what religion you are or how persecuted you are, if you are from one of these 7 countries the U.S. isn't interested.
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    (Original post by Dima-Blackburn)
    It's security theatre; it'll make people feel safer.
    Indeed, it seems like he is relying on the stupidity of his own voters not to understand (i) what his policy actually entails, or (ii) why it doesn't actually protect them, he just wants them to think that Trump is a man of the people and Muslims are banned so they are safe...

    You can see why he said "I love the poorly educated".

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    (Original post by Palmyra)
    Number of Americans killed by guns since 1968: 1,500,000


    Number of Americans killed by refugees since 1968: 5
    If someone's going to murder me why do I care what they use to do it? Also, I guarantee you that figure includes suicides, accidents, justified police shootings and gang violence (ie, stuff that's going to happen with or without guns).
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    (Original post by jape)
    If someone's going to murder me why do I care what they use to do it? Also, I guarantee you that figure includes suicides, accidents, justified police shootings and gang violence (ie, stuff that's going to happen with or without guns).
    "police shootings" would "happen with or without guns"?


    Please explain your logic (not that this is strictly relevant to the thread - it does seem to have triggered many NRA activists).
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    Anyone with more than one brain cell can see that the ban is more of a bravado than being about actually banning muslims. Notice all the countries he banned are poor countries who cannot fight back on the world stage.Had he banned Saudi or people from the UAE then he would have had a problem on his hands.


    Only xenophobes support this xenophobe.
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    It doesn't matter where immigrants come from it is more important to determine their fit into western society. Do they support equality, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, women's rights, gay rights? I'd prefer a huge overhaul of the citizenship test (which in the UK includes questions asking what date is st George's day and st Patrick's day - how useless!)

    Though that said, if you are a Syrian (or any of these countries) "refugee" in America, what you really are is an economic migrant - Calais all over again.
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    (Original post by Palmyra)
    "police shootings" would "happen with or without guns"?
    Slight mistype on my part. I'll say "fatalities resulting from resisting arrest".

    it does seem to have triggered many NRA activists
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    (Original post by Galadrielll)
    Anyone with more than one brain cell can see that the ban is more of a bravado than being about actually banning muslims. Notice all the countries he banned are poor countries who cannot fight back on the world stage.Had he banned Saudi or people from the UAE then he would have had a problem on his hands.


    Only xenophobes support this xenophobe.
    Indeed. Noticeable that Trump has substantial business interests in Saudi Arabia and the UAE, the former of which he has called the "world’s biggest funders of terrorism", but they are not in his list (he has no business interests in the 7 countries included in the ban).

    Yet some people still believe he actually has their best interests at heart and isn't like "other politicians". They're right in a way, he isn't like other politicians; never before has a President entered office with such a multitude of potentially conflicting business interests (normally they create a 'blind trust' and place control of their businesses in someone they don't know, but Trump has decided that he will let his sons manage his business and has promised that he won't discuss his businesses with his sons whilst he is in office). Not to mention his incredibly elusive tax returns... Incredible how badly Trump supporters pushed for Hillary's health reports, but don't seem to care about Trump's tax returns.

    But I digress.
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    Also, and I might be misremembering, but I'm pretty sure this isn't a blanket Muslim ban. It's a temporary ban on immigrants from Iraq, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria and Yemen (persecuted religious minorities can come through though).
 
 
 
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