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Please help, Muslims will probably only understand Watch

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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    Life is a test for us, not for God. The fact God knows the outcome doesn't change the fact that you make manifest your own predermined outcome by virtue of your choices.

    A person rejects guidance before a seal is placed over their hearts, which is why I gave my analogy.
    I've heard this platitude many times and it really is meaningless. We're the ones being tested and God is the only arbiter of the outcome so it is him doing the testing. Once again, you cannot test someone if you know and have actually fixed the outcome. In this context a test loses all meaning.

    The verse does not say that, it simply says a seal is placed on their heart and mind. And even if it's placed on after it prevents the person from ever having a change of heart so it still makes no sense. It's contradictory islamic theology that people who clearly didn't have a sophisticated knowledge made up over a thousand years ago.
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    (Original post by h333)
    I don't hate disbelievers
    You say I hate Muslims, I say you hate disbelievers. I say this because the Quran says you do.
    You think we are the vilest of animals (8:55), and that there is enmity and hate between us until I accept Allah (60:4), not to mention the fact that you think I deserve to be tortured for eternity simply for requiring reasonable evidence for the extraordinary claims of Islam. Not nice.

    I, on the other hand, don't hate you, or other Muslims, I am just strongly opposed to Islam as an ideology (you can call it "hate" if you want, I'm not so keen on the word myself).

    and I am not crying about it either.
    OK, but you do complain a lot.

    You was the one that quoted me and accused Muslims of holding ridiculous beliefs.
    To pretty much everyone but Muslims, they are ridiculous.

    Maybe try chasing Muslims in real life more often too and challenge their beliefs,
    I do. Whenever I see a table of dawah pamphlets, I see that as an invitation to debate. The problem with doing it IRL ourside of a proper debate structure, there just tends to be a lot of talking over me and refusing to answer questions.

    while you're at it get contact with Islamic scholars too and tell them that your interpretations are right as well as challenging them too.
    I'm not sure what you mean here. I often quote Islamic scholars to illustrate my arguments. And which scholars are you referring to? I find that there tends to be a wide variety of opinion amongst modern scholars, so where one might say a verse means "X", another might say it means "not X" or "Y". Which is why I looked into which tafsir was the most widely used, respected and authoritative, and stuck with that one.
    So if I say that a particular scholar that an apologist might be quoting in an argument is wrong it's not because I think he's wrong, but because Ibn Kathir thinks he is.
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    Life is a test for us, not for God. The fact God knows the outcome doesn't change the fact that you make manifest your own predermined outcome by virtue of your choices.
    WTF does this even mean?
    God has predetermined our actions but we act them out by making our own choices?
    That is may sound reasonable in your head, but it makes zero sense out here in the real world.

    A person rejects guidance before a seal is placed over their hearts, which is why I gave my analogy.
    But this cannot be, because Allah has determined the outcome of all things 50,000 years before creation. He knows that I will require evidence, he knows that he will fail to provide it, so he knows that he will set a seal. All before life even started on this planet.

    Also, if I Allah waits until he knows that I will definitely never believe, before he sets the seal, what is the point of the seal? I serves no purpose. (It also contradicts the fundamental tenets of Qadr)
    If there is a possibility that I may yet see the light, then setting a seal is unjust and cruel.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    You say I hate Muslims, I say you hate disbelievers. I say this because the Quran says you do.
    You think we are the vilest of animals (8:55), and that there is enmity and hate between us until I accept Allah (60:4), not to mention the fact that you think I deserve to be tortured for eternity simply for requiring reasonable evidence for the extraordinary claims of Islam. Not nice.

    I, on the other hand, don't hate you, or other Muslims, I am just strongly opposed to Islam as an ideology (you can call it "hate" if you want, I'm not so keen on the word myself).
    You need to stop deceiving others. You say that you don't hate Muslims but then disrespect them and think of them as ridiculous for believing in Islam when it is a religion they chose to follow. I wonder do you challenge all beliefs that you disagree with? If so, are you ready to chase, challenge Jews, Christians, Sikhs, Bhuddists or any way of life that believes in a creator and follow it on TSR, just as you do with islam, to be unbias or be fairer?
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    You need to stop deceiving others. You say that you don't hate Muslims but then disrespect them and think of them as ridiculous for believing in Islam when it is a religion they chose to follow.
    Not quite.
    Muslims are individuals who hold varying beliefs (compare Mohammad Emwazi to Majid Nawaaz), and I will judge them as individuals on the basis of their words and deeds, as I do with everyone.
    However, I do indeed think that Islamic beliefs are ridiculous, and I have no respect for anyone who claims that those beliefs are perfect and preferable to the values of liberal, secular democracy.

    I wonder do you challenge all beliefs that you disagree with? If so, are you ready to chase, challenge Jews, Christians, Sikhs, Bhuddists or any way of life that believes in a creator and follow it on TSR, just as you do with islam, to be unbias or be fairer?
    I will challenge them all, but Islam is the one that comes up the most and Muslims tend to make the most ridiculous claims.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    However, I do indeed think that Islamic beliefs are ridiculous, and I have no respect for anyone who claims that those beliefs are perfect and preferable to the values of liberal, secular democracy.
    Do you respect Muslims as people? Would you ever be friends with a Muslim? As long as they did not try to impose their views onto you?
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    (Original post by AishaGirl)
    Do you respect Muslims as people?
    As I always say, Muslims are individuals and I will judge them by their words and deeds, just like I do with everyone else. It's like asking if I respect Americans or white people.

    Would you ever be friends with a Muslim? As long as they did not try to impose their views onto you?
    I have been and still am. The Muslims I would cal proper friends were less observant than you would probably approve of. The few more observant types on my courses at uni, I was on friendly terms but didn't hang out at all, more their choice than mine.

    I would be fine with them trying to impose their views as it would be a green light for heated debate! (I think that I have already mentioned that I only debate IRL if the other person(s) are up for it as well. I never just start on randoms)
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    (Original post by QE2)
    As I always say, Muslims are individuals and I will judge them by their words and deeds, just like I do with everyone else.
    That's a healthy attitude to have
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    There goes the eminently rigorous field of Hadith science. Many scholars will be out of job thanks to you. :sad:
    Is this a joke? Not very funny!
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    (Original post by QE2)
    You say I hate Muslims, I say you hate disbelievers. I say this because the Quran says you do.
    You think we are the vilest of animals (8:55), and that there is enmity and hate between us until I accept Allah (60:4), not to mention the fact that you think I deserve to be tortured for eternity simply for requiring reasonable evidence for the extraordinary claims of Islam. Not nice.

    I, on the other hand, don't hate you, or other Muslims, I am just strongly opposed to Islam as an ideology (you can call it "hate" if you want, I'm not so keen on the word myself).
    It's Allah that hates disbelievers. I believe Muslims should treat disbelievers as people, but should aim to show them the right way. The Quran clearly states that disbelievers will spend eternity in Hellfire, so of course Muslims would want to convert others, for their own good.
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    Is it just me or are there more non muslims replying ? Anyway inshallah things will get better keep on going with your imaan. Like you said you dont see a future with him so you cant really pursue. Im like that too, if there is someone who isnt muslim i'll talk to her etc but I know there's nothing that will come of it.

    Now its wriiten who your spouse is, inshallah you will find him. Now my advice would be try to slowly get some understanding with your parents, because family is important. If not try speaking to the local mosque ?
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    (Original post by AishaGirl)
    People convert to Islam every single day. Perhaps you may be one of them? Whether it's tomorrow, next year or when you're laying on your death bed, you never know when your heart will open up.

    Allahu alim.
    You should look up the Ex Muslim council in Britain. Lots of people leave Islam. Majority of people just don't say it because isn't the penalty for apostasy death?

    Oh yes and Islam is only the fastest growing religion due to birth rates and then the indoctrination. Not because of conversions.

    (Original post by h333)
    Yeah we get it, you hate Islam and its followers. No problem, I don't expect any respect. I was thinking about the OP because her thread is just ruined now but fine carry on.
    Well some members of the ISOC aren't exactly helping themselves on this thread by posting misogynistic and arrogant BS. If they're going to be like that in the name of religion, then they are deluded to think that they won't get any criticism.
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    (Original post by BigTraderBoi)
    It's Allah that hates disbelievers. I believe Muslims should treat disbelievers as people, but should aim to show them the right way. The Quran clearly states that disbelievers will spend eternity in Hellfire, so of course Muslims would want to convert others, for their own good.
    Oh dear that sucks. Do you know they'll provide alcohol and vegetarian food in hell? But thanks so much for caring about people who have no interest in converting to Islam. I wish there was a medal for people for you!
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    #15

    (Original post by QE2)
    Not quite.
    Muslims are individuals who hold varying beliefs (compare Mohammad Emwazi to Majid Nawaaz), and I will judge them as individuals on the basis of their words and deeds, as I do with everyone.
    However, I do indeed think that Islamic beliefs are ridiculous, and I have no respect for anyone who claims that those beliefs are perfect and preferable to the values of liberal, secular democracy.

    I will challenge them all, but Islam is the one that comes up the most and Muslims tend to make the most ridiculous claims.
    Very unprofessional, you admit you won't respect anyone just because they disagree with your opinions. To another your values maybe seen as ridiculous, this word "ridiculous" is quite unprofessional and shows that you are very angry and hate the fact they hold different values to you. Also, using this word repeatedly does not make simply make something ridiculous, you are only convincing yourself that it does.

    From this I can conclude that you are probably focusing, attacking, challenging and interested in Islam because it is highly mentioned and spoken about now eg in the media. Furthermore, you are being bias towards Islam and quite obsessed with it more than other faiths, when other faiths also have some similar teachings or teachings that you do not approve of. Just because they don't come up as often as Islam does not mean they don't exist. It maybe that you're not being truthful that you in fact like to avoid them because it does not give you the same triumph as it does when challenging Islam. You not approving the religions, does mean that those faiths are in fact wrong enirely. Clearly, you seem to think that you hold great knowledge about these faiths (especially Islam), but reality is you know very little and mostly just go to find negatives about anything relating to a creator. As a result, you fail or do not desire to aknowledge understanding and reasonings associated with any faith, especially Islam. I also sense intolerance as you clearly don't want Muslims to believe in their faith or can't seem to accept the idea that humans believe in a creator.

    You have given a very subjective and hypocritical reply. Very bias indeed and this is coming from a neutral perspective. Anyway, would love to see you actually challenge other faiths just like the way you passionately challenge Islam.
 
 
 
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