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    (Original post by epoddoulc)
    Polytheists means anyone who believes in more than one God. How is it acceptable to murder them for their beliefs? Which context would it be deemed permissable? Surely the "religion of peace" would promote harmony amongst religious people rather than senseless violence?

    Muslim response to ANY argument:
    a.) You are racist
    b.) You don't understand the context
    c.) You are racist
    It doesn't necessarily mean that the polytheists were killed because of their beliefs. If someone had said "kill all communists" if the USSR had attacked, they're not necessarily being killed because they're communists, it's because they attacked due to differences of opinion (which, admittedly, are ultimately derived from communism)

    Also, what a boring generalisation of Muslim responses - it's stuff like that turns a debate into a **** flinging contest
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    (Original post by epoddoulc)
    Polytheists means anyone who believes in more than one God. How is it acceptable to murder them for their beliefs? Which context would it be deemed permissable? Surely the "religion of peace" would promote harmony amongst religious people rather than senseless violence?

    Muslim response to ANY argument:
    a.) You are racist
    b.) You don't understand the context
    c.) You are racist
    Hmm well I have Muslim friends who pull out deontological arguments and stuff- so that's not technically true- I do understand the point you are trying to make though. Just a question- what exactly do you want us to accept- that Islamophobia is non-existent because it doesn't apply to "the irrational fear" part? Suppose we accept that the fear is not irrational- so what then? What do you want?
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    (Original post by epoddoulc)
    Before you ban me for "being racist/discriminatory"; at least read what I have to say.

    Having a phobia is defined as having an "irrational fear of or aversion to something".

    It's not irrational to fear Islam when this is one of the verses from the Quran:

    "And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush" - Surah At-Tawbah [9:5]

    If any Muslim can prove me wrong, feel free to do so.
    It would be more helpful if you posted the full definition of phobia.

    phobia ˈfəʊbɪə/ noun noun: phobia; plural nounhobias

    an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something.

    Notice the OR?

    Islamophobia noun [mass noun]
    Dislike of or prejudice against Islam or Muslims, especially as a political force.

    Perhaps you kniow more what words mean than the Oxford dictionary?
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    (Original post by S.olk)
    Erm, islamophobia is the irrational fear of Islam, which preaches a lot of what Christianity preaches. My point is that Islamophobia is not an entirely rational fear when those who fear Islam the most are Westerners coming from countries founded on christianity-which mirrors islam in many ways.
    You failed to answer my question accordingly, this thread is regarding Islam, what relevence does Christianity hold?

    Surely you're using the bible as a scapegoat
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    (Original post by S.olk)
    I'm not muslim but it just seems like you have cherry picked a few verses. The bible says pretty much the same thing when it comes to non believers, however I do agree that 'Islamophobia' is not an irrational fear-it has just been enlarged and over exaggerated by various societal institiutions.
    Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you

    Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

    Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers

    Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

    Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they suffer pain as you suffer pain..."

    Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned;

    Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

    Quran (8:67) - "It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land..."

    Quran (9:73) - "O Prophet! Strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination."

    Quran (25:52) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness..."

    - - - - -

    Those are just some of the verses present in the Quran. Just a few examples that can be easily found out there, and there's many more. How can a reasonable person with any regard for basic human rights and dignity look at these verses and deem them anyhow acceptable? We can't. They are violent, aggressive, prejudiced, xenophobic, degrading and insulting. How can you, or anyone else living in a modern, liberal, egalitarian Western society look at those verses and still claim that there's nothing wrong with the Quran? Furthermore, I don't wish to make a exception out of Islam. There's plenty of violence in a lot of religious texts, it's just that the Quran is possibly the most violent of them all.

    As far as the term "Islamophobia" goes, I think that it's frankly ridiculous in the way some people use it. Some use it to describe any criticism against Islam, Muslims or anything related to that topic. In reality, Muslims and Islam are not the same thing. Islam is just a set of ideas, an ideology, which can be criticized, mocked, questioned and examined just as any other ideology. Muslims, on the other hand, are people with certain beliefs who have the same human rights as anyone else, as well as equal human dignity.

    Therefore, it is extremely unhelpful and intellectually irresponsible to treat any criticism of Islam as a direct act of prejudice or discrimination against Muslims. I can criticize Islam as an ideology all day long and then still still down with a Muslim person and talk to them and treat them just as well as I would any other person.

    Islam is viable target of our criticism, and will always be.
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    (Original post by 999tigger)
    It would be more helpful if you posted the full definition of phobia.

    phobia ˈfəʊbɪə/ noun noun: phobia; plural nounhobias

    an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something.

    Notice the OR?

    Islamophobia noun [mass noun]
    Dislike of or prejudice against Islam or Muslims, especially as a political force.

    Perhaps you kniow more what words mean than the Oxford dictionary?
    Checked this- true.
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    (Original post by epoddoulc)
    This thread is regarding Islam, so why are you mentioning the bible?
    Maybe because iits the comparable religious text and they were pointing out that in old books lots of things were written that people today find bonkers. You seem obssessed with Islam.
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    I think the key to not being called an Islamophobe is to simply present a good argument but minimise the angry vitriol. For example, around 2/3 of the bottom half of this post could be cut out without detracting from the argument

    (Original post by Withengar)
    Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you

    Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

    Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers

    Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

    Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they suffer pain as you suffer pain..."

    Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned;

    Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

    Quran (8:67) - "It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land..."

    Quran (9:73) - "O Prophet! Strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination."

    Quran (25:52) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness..."

    - - - - -

    Those are just some of the verses present in the Quran. Just a few examples that can be easily found out there, and there's many more. How can a reasonable person with any regard for basic human rights and dignity look at these verses and deem them anyhow acceptable? We can't. They are violent, aggressive, prejudiced, xenophobic, degrading and insulting. How can you, or anyone else living in a modern, liberal, egalitarian Western society look at those verses and still claim that there's nothing wrong with the Quran? Furthermore, I don't wish to make a exception out of Islam. There's plenty of violence in a lot of religious texts, it's just that the Quran is possibly the most violent of them all.

    As far as the term "Islamophobia" goes, I think that it's frankly ridiculous in the way some people use it. Some use it to describe any criticism against Islam, Muslims or anything related to that topic. In reality, Muslims and Islam are not the same thing. Islam is just a set of ideas, an ideology, which can be criticized, mocked, questioned and examined just as any other ideology. Muslims, on the other hand, are people with certain beliefs who have the same human rights as anyone else, as well as equal human dignity.

    Therefore, it is extremely unhelpful and intellectually irresponsible to treat any criticism of Islam as a direct act of prejudice or discrimination against Muslims. I can criticize Islam as an ideology all day long and then still still down with a Muslim person and talk to them and treat them just as well as I would any other person.

    Islam is viable target of our criticism, and will always be.
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    (Original post by Withengar)
    Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you

    Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

    Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers

    Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

    Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they suffer pain as you suffer pain..."

    Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned;

    Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

    Quran (8:67) - "It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land..."

    Quran (9:73) - "O Prophet! Strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination."

    Quran (25:52) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness..."

    - - - - -

    Those are just some of the verses present in the Quran. Just a few examples that can be easily found out there, and there's many more. How can a reasonable person with any regard for basic human rights and dignity look at these verses and deem them anyhow acceptable? We can't. They are violent, aggressive, prejudiced, xenophobic, degrading and insulting. How can you, or anyone else living in a modern, liberal, egalitarian Western society look at those verses and still claim that there's nothing wrong with the Quran? Furthermore, I don't wish to make a exception out of Islam. There's plenty of violence in a lot of religious texts, it's just that the Quran is possibly the most violent of them all.

    As far as the term "Islamophobia" goes, I think that it's frankly ridiculous in the way some people use it. Some use it to describe any criticism against Islam, Muslims or anything related to that topic. In reality, Muslims and Islam are not the same thing. Islam is just a set of ideas, an ideology, which can be criticized, mocked, questioned and examined just as any other ideology. Muslims, on the other hand, are people with certain beliefs who have the same human rights as anyone else, as well as equal human dignity.

    Therefore, it is extremely unhelpful and intellectually irresponsible to treat any criticism of Islam as a direct act of prejudice or discrimination against Muslims. I can criticize Islam as an ideology all day long and then still still down with a Muslim person and talk to them and treat them just as well as I would any other person.

    Islam is viable target of our criticism, and will always be.
    Well, again, I really don't know the contexts of those quotes, so I'm weary of the point you make about Islam itself, but I do agree that, according to the definition pointed out by 999, criticism=/= phobia. That said, your description of Islam would probably be categorised as phobia ( under the extreme aversion category- without debating whether it is rational)
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    Actually, according to the Oxford dictionary this is the definition of Islamophobia:
    "Dislike of or prejudice against Islam or Muslims, especially as a political force."
    Don't see "irrational" or "fear" anywhere.

    If you don't like that definition though, according to Dictionary.com this is the definition:
    "hatred or fear of Muslims or of their politics or culture"
    Notice the word "or"

    Also the Cambridge dictionary:
    "unreasonable dislike or fear of, and prejudice against, Muslims or Islam"
    Again - notice the word "or"

    Islamophobia does not necessarily mean fear of Islam, it could mean fear of Islam, hatred of Islam, fear of Muslims or hatred of Muslims. It was first used in 1991 so it's not a new word, but more recently the Oxford definition tends to be closest to the modern use of the word.
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    (Original post by h3rmit)
    I think the key to not being called an Islamophobe is to simply present a good argument but minimise the angry vitriol. For example, around 2/3 of the bottom half of this post could be cut out without detracting from the argument
    Was that supposed to be a counter-argument? He destroyed you with logic. Logic; a m*****s worst enemy.
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    (Original post by Yuuchin1)
    Well, again, I really don't know the contexts of those quotes, so I'm weary of the point you make about Islam itself, but I do agree that, according to the definition pointed out by 999, criticism=/= phobia. That said, your description of Islam would probably be categorised as phobia ( under the extreme aversion category- without debating whether it is rational)
    CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT....

    Is that the only word you know? How would allah expect us to understand the right context? He didn't think this through, did he?
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    (Original post by Withengar)
    Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you

    Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

    Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers

    Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

    Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they suffer pain as you suffer pain..."

    Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned;

    Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

    Quran (8:67) - "It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land..."

    Quran (9:73) - "O Prophet! Strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination."

    Quran (25:52) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness..."

    - - - - -

    Those are just some of the verses present in the Quran. Just a few examples that can be easily found out there, and there's many more. How can a reasonable person with any regard for basic human rights and dignity look at these verses and deem them anyhow acceptable? We can't. They are violent, aggressive, prejudiced, xenophobic, degrading and insulting. How can you, or anyone else living in a modern, liberal, egalitarian Western society look at those verses and still claim that there's nothing wrong with the Quran? Furthermore, I don't wish to make a exception out of Islam. There's plenty of violence in a lot of religious texts, it's just that the Quran is possibly the most violent of them all.

    As far as the term "Islamophobia" goes, I think that it's frankly ridiculous in the way some people use it. Some use it to describe any criticism against Islam, Muslims or anything related to that topic. In reality, Muslims and Islam are not the same thing. Islam is just a set of ideas, an ideology, which can be criticized, mocked, questioned and examined just as any other ideology. Muslims, on the other hand, are people with certain beliefs who have the same human rights as anyone else, as well as equal human dignity.

    Therefore, it is extremely unhelpful and intellectually irresponsible to treat any criticism of Islam as a direct act of prejudice or discrimination against Muslims. I can criticize Islam as an ideology all day long and then still still down with a Muslim person and talk to them and treat them just as well as I would any other person.

    Islam is viable target of our criticism, and will always be.
    That is actually a coherent argument.
    And your choice of verse mentioning the disbelievers going off to hell... well, if they didn't, what's the point of Islam as a religion - might as well just be an eccentric way to live your life.
    Yes we believe disbelievers will go to hell (and suffer), but just as you are happy to treat a Muslim as you would anyone else, albeit being "[sic] islamophobic", Muslims will treat a non-believer - who they full well believe will, come judgement day, be in their "abode" hell - with the respect they'd treat a fellow Muslim.

    And OP's verse was out of context.
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    (Original post by epoddoulc)
    Was that supposed to be a counter-argument? He destroyed you with logic. Logic; a m*****s worst enemy.
    I'm actually an atheist, not a muslim. Resorting to insults is quite immature too. How old are you?

    And no, that was not supposed to be a counter argument. It was meant to be advice that implies that your arguments, if they are good, should speak for themselves and you shouldn't have to include emotive speech in what should be logical arguments.
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    (Original post by epoddoulc)
    Religion of peace:



    Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran) The verse prior to this (190) refers to "fighting for the cause of Allah those who fight you" leading some to claim that the entire passage refers to a defensive war in which Muslims are defending their homes and families. The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, however, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). Verse 190 thus means to fight those who offer resistance to Allah's rule (ie. Muslim conquest). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is disingenuous - the actual Arabic words for persecution (idtihad) - and oppression (a variation of "z-l-m" do not appear in the verse. The word used instead, "fitna", can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. This is certainly what is meant in this context since the violence is explicitly commissioned "until religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

    Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

    Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

    Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

    Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah'.

    Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, who were led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. This is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.

    Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

    Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

    Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home), except those who are disabled (by injury or are blind or lame, etc.), and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred in grades those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and their lives above those who sit (at home).Unto each, Allah has promised good (Paradise), but Allah has preferred those who strive hard and fight, above those who sit (at home) by a huge reward " This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah's eyes. It also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Quran, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is this Arabic word (mujahiduna) used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad, which would not make sense if it meant an internal struggle).

    Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..." Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense?

    Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

    Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle. The targets of violence are "those who disbelieve" - further defined in the next verse (13) as "defy and disobey Allah." Nothing is said about self-defense. In fact, the verses in sura 8 were narrated shortly after a battle provoked by Muhammad, who had been trying to attack a lightly-armed caravan to steal goods belonging to other people.

    Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

    Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion is all for Allah" Some translations interpret "fitna" as "persecution", but the traditional understanding of this word is not supported by the historical context). The Meccans were simply refusing Muhammad access to their city during Haj. Other Muslims were allowed to travel there - just not as an armed group, since Muhammad had declared war on Mecca prior to his eviction. The Meccans were also acting in defense of their religion, since it was Muhammad's intention to destroy their idols and establish Islam by force (which he later did). Hence the critical part of this verse is to fight until "religion is only for Allah", meaning that the true justification of violence was the unbelief of the opposition. According to the Sira (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 324) Muhammad further explains that "Allah must have no rivals."

    Quran (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

    Quran (8:67) - "It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land..."

    Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

    Quran (8:65) - "O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight..."

    Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence at the time of Muhammad was to convert to Islam: prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religion's Five Pillars. The popular claim that the Quran only inspires violence within the context of self-defense is seriously challenged by this passage as well, since the Muslims to whom it was written were obviously not under attack. Had they been, then there would have been no waiting period (earlier verses make it a duty for Muslims to fight in self-defense, even during the sacred months). The historical context is Mecca after the idolaters were subjugated by Muhammad and posed no threat. Once the Muslims had power, they violently evicted those unbelievers who would not convert. [Note: The verse says to fight unbelievers "wherever you find them". Even if the context is in a time of battle (which it was not) the reading appears to sanction attacks against those "unbelievers" who are not on the battlefield. In 2016, the Islamic State referred to this verse in urging the faithful to commit terror attacks: Allah did not only command the 'fighting' of disbelievers, as if to say He only wants us to conduct frontline operations against them. Rather, He has also ordered that they be slain wherever they may be – on or off the battlefield. (source)] Quran (9:14) - "Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people." Humiliating and hurting non-believers not only has the blessing of Allah, but it is ordered as a means of carrying out his punishment and even "healing" the hearts of Muslims.
    Hmm. Thanks for a bunch of quotes and explanations (admittedly I only read a few of them properly and skimmed the rest). I am especially worried about parts suggesting "disbelief is worse than killing". Still, I am not entirely sure if the disbelievers at that time were, in general, innocent (innocent meaning not liable to cause Muslims harm). In any case, Quran seems to be at least stereotyping heavily and extremely against disbelievers, but the intention may have been to defend.
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    (Original post by h3rmit)
    I'm actually an atheist, not a muslim. Resorting to insults is quite immature too. How old are you?

    And no, that was not supposed to be a counter argument. It was meant to be advice that implies that your arguments, if they are good, should speak for themselves and you shouldn't have to include emotive speech in what should be logical arguments.
    I'm 17 years old, you failed to provide a counter argument because you know yourself that the Quran is one of, if not the most violent book in human history.
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    (Original post by Yuuchin1)
    Hmm. Thanks for a bunch of quotes and explanations (admittedly I only read a few of them properly and skimmed the rest). I am especially worried about parts suggesting "disbelief is worse than killing". Still, I am not entirely sure if the disbelievers at that time were, in general, innocent (innocent meaning not liable to cause Muslims harm). In any case, Quran seems to be at least stereotyping heavily and extremely against disbelievers, but the intention may have been to defend.
    But the quran says allah knows everything past, present and future. This means that the Quran can never reform. Meaning everything mentioned in the Quran still applies to the modern world.

    Are you admitting that the Quran is out dated?
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    (Original post by epoddoulc)
    You failed to answer my question accordingly, this thread is regarding Islam, what relevence does Christianity hold?

    Surely you're using the bible as a scapegoat
    This thread is entitled 'The term Islamophobia' Islamophobia is the irrational fear of Islam. You said it is not irrational to fear Islam. I also said it isn't but questioned why people fear Islam when it mirrors Christianity in many capacities. Happy?
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    (Original post by epoddoulc)
    I'm 17 years old, you failed to provide a counter argument because you know yourself that the Quran is one of, if not the most violent book in human history.
    I mean yeah, I haven't backed up my claims - with sufficient context - so might as well just repeat my original point to the frustration of whoever's arguing with me.
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    (Original post by epoddoulc)
    CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT....

    Is that the only word you know? How would allah expect us to understand the right context? He didn't think this through, did he?
    No as in the placement of the quote within the Quran (i.e. preceding verses describing an actual war for example?). Well I'm pretty sure it wasn't the Supreme Fascist who wrote this- some guy decided he can do good to society by opening a religion (full of, in modern eyes impossible, stories) and wrote it is my personal bet (but you never know (shrug)). I'm not defending Muslim beliefs- I'm trying to defend their dignity as a group
 
 
 
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