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England and Scotland need each other Watch

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    I'm a bit gutted to see the arrogance and blitheness many English people have about Scotland and/or them leaving. I think this antipathy that has risen over the years is is media fuelled, like so many pernicious trends.

    The English growing ever more pig headed, incurious, economically right wing and uninterested in our shared destiny with the Scots showing a more speculative ope minded attitude to the future looks to be likely but depressing.

    The arrogance, ignorance and knee jerk political instinct of many in England is what's fueling the divide, it's symbiotic as a relationship.

    England will be far weaker and less interesting for the loss of Scotland, and continue to head the wrong political direction.

    Scotland may make domestic policies more tailored to itself but will lose on the world stage.

    It is just a lose lose, but on the other hand I totally get the independence movement as English open mindedness and change seems such an intractable problem.

    I'm not talking crazed revolution, just a less dogmatic, defensive, superior and dismissive attitude to everyone else.

    There is so much incurious ignorance in England, not just on fact but I'd say, at the risk of pomposity, on a spiritual or societal level.

    I'm bored and tired of the self-satisfied sneering, dogma and adherence to the creed of superiority, fixed notions on how the world should be etc....even the Yanks, despite the dogmatic ones, are much more open overall to evolution.

    I think the social contract has broken in England, there is not much thought or politcal consciousness beyond identity politics, and frankly Scotland is heading to a more interesting place.

    The idea of solidarity, society and a collective destiny, or any curiosity about some such has just gone in England, behind the gloss it is weirdly soulless, self seeking and devoid of humanity.

    I suppose I am talking myself in to realising with this you can't really change it.

    The English may now be one of the least amenable to progress people at this point.

    What I meant in this post was I had the wish for a culture which united the peoples, a fusion of the two and an interest in a common destiny.

    I'm talking fantasy I think as the English are only really conscious of individualism, and have nothing in the way of curiosity or idealism. I have been imagining something different my whole life, wanting them to wake up and question- if only they had a fraction of the Scots curiosity or interest in society as a whole.

    Yes, I think the union is dead. Only was to save it is make the Scots as soulless as us and blend them in.
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    I'm not really sure you've quite pinned down your thoughts on this issue. There didn't really seem to be a consistent point there.

    You're speaking culturally about the differences between Scotland and England. I'd suggest they've never been culturally integrated than in my generation. From everything from the newspapers we read to the way we speak, Scotland and England are more similar now than they were.

    You speak about Scotland being some sort of home of open-mindedness about the future and where resistance to change is non-existent. Do not forget that for the last 60 years at least, the political beliefs of Scotland have been broadly centrist and very, very conservative. Since devolution, Scottish difference has been more about what we haven't changed rather than what we have - and more about rolling-back than looking forward.

    If you'd like to come up to Scotland and start making points about dynamic change and progress, good luck to you. I just expect it will go down like a cup of cold sick.
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    Freedom
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    (Original post by AndrewSCO)
    Freedom
    Well, quite.
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    (Original post by AndrewSCO)
    Freedom
    Supported "In" last time around, not sure I would do the same again
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    (Original post by wolfmoon88)
    Supported "In" last time around, not sure I would do the same again
    I voted yes last time but would vote no next time
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    (Original post by AndrewSCO)
    I voted yes last time but would vote no next time
    No freedom then?
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    (Original post by wolfmoon88)
    No freedom then?
    I guess not :lol:
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    (Original post by AndrewSCO)
    I guess not :lol:
    :rofl::rofl:

    to be fair... I would probably still support No
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    I get why Scotland can be unhappy with the state of the UK, but I think they (or rather, their leaders) drastically overestimate how happy they'll be outside of it.
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    (Original post by Drewski)
    I get why Scotland can be unhappy with the state of the UK, but I think they (or rather, their leaders) drastically overestimate how happy they'll be outside of it.
    Completely agree, I do not think a second Scottish Referendum is a great idea tbh.

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    Even if I was going to vote yes again I really can't be bothered going through another referendum, jeez that was a painful 2 years
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    (Original post by Drewski)
    I get why Scotland can be unhappy with the state of the UK, but I think they (or rather, their leaders) drastically overestimate how happy they'll be outside of it.
    Well, that's the thing. I think the Scottish nationalists do well pushing grievance, but they're not really so good about presenting a credible alternative.

    Moreover, it's about centuries of history, not simply registering discontent with a current government, policy or status quo. Let's not forget how different the UK is now from what it was 50 years ago.
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    (Original post by wolfmoon88)
    Completely agree, I do not think a second Scottish Referendum is a great idea tbh.

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    I think it is inevitable. Just as the UK left the EU, then I think the lurse of independence and being in control of your own future will prove too attractive, even if they are worse off economically.
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    (Original post by AndrewSCO)
    Even if I was going to vote yes again I really can't be bothered going through another referendum, jeez that was a painful 2 years
    Hahaha :rofl: rep for that (can't rep on phone)

    (Original post by 999tigger)
    I think it is inevitable. Just as the UK left the EU, then I think the lurse of independence and being in control of your own future will prove too attractive, even if they are worse off economically.
    That's fair. But I guess it will add another interesting point in UK politics for the next couple of years.

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    (Original post by 999tigger)
    I think it is inevitable. Just as the UK left the EU, then I think the lurse of independence and being in control of your own future will prove too attractive, even if they are worse off economically.
    The problem is of course that this hard-Nationalist argument has had decades to thrive and hasn't. Most people in Scotland already do feel they control their own destiny - and yes, that's partly a nationalist angle: most people in Scotland feel British in a way that most people in the UK don't feel European (barring maybe Ken Clarke).
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    (Original post by L i b)
    The problem is of course that this hard-Nationalist argument has had decades to thrive and hasn't. Most people in Scotland already do feel they control their own destiny - and yes, that's partly a nationalist angle: most people in Scotland feel British in a way that most people in the UK don't feel European (barring maybe Ken Clarke).
    Actually I think they woyld prefer to stay in Europe and at the moment it is marginal as to whether they wish to remain in the UK. leaving the EU 20 years ago was not on the horizon, but here we are. Wouldnt surpise me in the slightest if they vote to leave the union when the next referendum happens.
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    (Original post by 999tigger)
    Actually I think they woyld prefer to stay in Europe and at the moment it is marginal as to whether they wish to remain in the UK. leaving the EU 20 years ago was not on the horizon, but here we are. Wouldnt surpise me in the slightest if they vote to leave the union when the next referendum happens.
    I think it's a truth fairly well demonstrated that people don't actually care that much about the EU, beyond its ability to be a domestic nuisance. The SNP floated a kite on changing their position to support EEA membership rather than EU membership last week - were there great howls of outrage? No. Just a collective "meh".

    For the most part, there isn't a great affection towards the EU in any part of the UK. In the main, it's seen as an economic arrangement that oversteps its bounds. I say this, incidentally, as a fairly idealistic Remain voter who does actually buy the stuff about European unity - I'm just reminded that I was in a very, very tiny minority.

    You're quite right that politics can change a great deal in 20 years (although I'd argue that in 1997, Euroscepticism was already a force to be reckoned with in the UK) but that of course cuts both ways. As we've seen in Quebec, nationalism can rise and fall as with any political movement: and the nationalists there came a lot closer to their goal than those in Scotland ever have.
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    Scotland is a separate country but the reality is it is an area of the uk.

    That is what the problem is.

    We don't see it as an England Scotland issue. we see Scotland like we see Yorkshire or Cornwall, another area of the uk.

    Should never have gone for devolution


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