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    As discussed with my party, I will be voting nay on this bill.
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    I would abstain the line has to be drawn somewhere and I understand the argument for both 16 and 18 but do not have a strong opinion either way
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    (Original post by Saracen's Fez)
    Aye, absolutely.

    I thought voting age in local government elections was a devolved power though, just wondering whether the author is aware / knows otherwise?
    Glad to see your support for the bill. I've just done a brief search and it is. What relevance does it being a devolved power mean though - surely the mention in the note is sufficient?
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    Nay, I do not agree with rewarding ageist and immature behaviour and that goes for all. 18 is perfectly reasonable.

    (Original post by Aph)
    but at the same time recognise that the youth should get more of a say about their future. One thing that has to be remembered is that laws should work for now and the future and politicians need to remember that.
    I appreciate the point you're trying to make, but it just sounds like the youth having more of a say about their future comes at the cost of the older generation having less of a say about their present.

    (Original post by _gcx)
    Ignorant voters should be free to be ignorant.

    Immature voters should be free to be immature.
    Votes for newborns!
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    (Original post by Conceited)
    Glad to see your support for the bill. I've just done a brief search and it is. What relevance does it being a devolved power mean though - surely the mention in the note is sufficient?
    It doesn't make any difference here because the Second Canon Amendment lets us model the devolved institutions, I just wanted to raise the point that that was what we were going to be doing.
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    (Original post by tengentoppa)
    The overwhelming majority of under 18s are not active contributors to the economy. They can't open (1) a bank account, (2) write a will, (3) buy property, (4) serve on a jury etc.
    (1) false
    (2) false
    (3) false
    (4) this is literally just because jury service is based on the electoral register

    strong aye
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    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    I could use the same logic to justify Aph's idea of banning the elderly from voting. They're all morons moaning about silly made-up phenomena such as immigrants reducing wages or Gordon Brown causing the financial crisis, who think they're so much smarter just because they've lived longer even though it's the politicians they've elected throughout their lifetimes who've messed things up and they're brainwashed by the Daily Mail, Express etc. The argument would only have any merit if young people widely believed things considered scientifically disproved, like the idea that humans haven't caused climate change, but that isn't the case - they just tend to have different opinions to you, and if you think that's a good reason to disenfranchise people I find that quite worrying.
    You could make that argument but the argument is vapid and outlandish. The argument against children voting is pretty straightforward and, as you're showing us, not easy to refute.
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    (Original post by jape)
    You could make that argument but the argument is vapid and outlandish. The argument against children voting is pretty straightforward and, as you're showing us, not easy to refute.
    How is it vapid and outlandish compared to Life_peer's? He is suggesting 16 and 17 year olds shouldn't be able to vote because he considers many of their opinions to demonstrate a lack of critical thought - I don't think it's outlandish to suggest views typical of older people don't exactly exemplify critical thinking either.
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    Aye
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    16 year olds are eligible to pay tax, serve in our armed forces and have sex. I see no reason why they shouldn't also be able to vote and become engaged in our democracy.
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    I think the cut off point is kinda just an arbitrary number and I don't feel THAT strongly about it; if you can wait 16 years you can wait another 2 surely.

    Also though I do acknowledge that some 16 years olds can be politically active and interested and there's all the tired and exhausted rights arguments.

    Abstain, genuinely torn.
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    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    How is it vapid and outlandish compared to Life_peer's? He is suggesting 16 and 17 year olds shouldn't be able to vote because he considers many of their opinions to demonstrate a lack of critical thought - I don't think it's outlandish to suggest views typical of older people don't exactly exemplify critical thinking either.
    The examples of older people lacking reasoning skills are the silly bit. Immigrants do suppress unskilled labour wages, that's a fact. Supply and demand mean it's impossible for them not to suppress wages. Gordon Brown didn't cause the financial crisis but his reckless spending as Chancellor and subsequently as PM made our debt problem infinitely more pressing than it already was.

    The "people who don't agree with me are brainwashed by the Mail" thing is the height of self-absorption, and for every old person who believes verbatim the text of the newest Daily Mail I can find you ten fourteen year-olds who either read the Huffington Post and Vox with the same fervour. And probably 100 who pick up empty platitudes from empty famous people on Twitter.
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    I'm 17 and I am furious I couldn't vote in the last election or the EU referendum. These decisions effect my future as a student and as a citizen, and I feel I should have a right to take part in it. You could say that 16 year olds won't make good choices, but many people older than that don't either. In the US election just gone people voted for Harambe, a dead gorilla. People will make joke decisions regardless of age, so I don't see why someone my age who is allowed to get married, have sex and apply for a loan that will put me in debt for years to come (with university prices rising!) shouldn't be allowed to vote.
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    (Original post by jape)
    The examples of older people lacking reasoning skills are the silly bit. Immigrants do suppress unskilled labour wages, that's a fact. Supply and demand mean it's impossible for them not to suppress wages. Gordon Brown didn't cause the financial crisis but his reckless spending as Chancellor and subsequently as PM made our debt problem infinitely more pressing than it already was.

    The "people who don't agree with me are brainwashed by the Mail" thing is the height of self-absorption, and for every old person who believes verbatim the text of the newest Daily Mail I can find you ten fourteen year-olds who either read the Huffington Post and Vox with the same fervour. And probably 100 who pick up empty platitudes from empty famous people on Twitter.
    Well, one estimate puts the effect of immigration on unskilled labour wages at approximately 1p per hour between 2004 and 2012 - and that doesn't account for the fact that immigration generally leads to increased growth, which can raise wages for everyone. I think it's fair to put that one in the "opinion" column. That's certainly where LP's examples belong - I'd like to see anybody prove that cultural appropriation is "made-up". And given that in their first term Blair and Brown reduced the deficit run up by Thatcher and Major I'm pretty sure "reckless" is a rather opinionated term to use.
    There's nothing wrong with any of these opinions, but that's all they are, and they don't make anybody stupid or less worthy of being allowed to vote for believing in them.

    So what is the belief that people who disagree with you are brainwashed by the Huffington Post/Vox/Twitter, then? It's a simple matter of maturity and humility: recognising that your opinions are not more valid, or smarter, or more legitimate than those of other people. You are welcome to believe what you like and argue for what you like, but there are precious few hard truths in politics and economics and you most certainly don't get to exclude people from voicing their opinions at the ballot box just because you regard yours as somehow superior.
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    (Original post by ByronicHero)
    I opened a bank account when I was 16. I wasn't aware the rules had changed - any idea when that happened?
    I presume you opened a joint account with a parent/guardian. It was my understanding that a 16 year old cannot open a bank account by himself.
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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    (1) false
    (2) false
    (3) false
    (4) this is literally just because jury service is based on the electoral register

    strong aye
    You need your parent's help and authorisation to do all those things. The law evidently does not deem people that age as being competent to make those decisions.

    Why then, would they be competent to vote?
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    (Original post by tengentoppa)
    I presume you opened a joint account with a parent/guardian. It was my understanding that a 16 year old cannot open a bank account by himself.
    It's definitely 16 these days. I know plenty who'd opened up accounts when preparing for uni before their 18th birthdays, and a quick google finds loads of mainstream banks offering specialised accounts for 16-19 year olds which just ask for their ID and don't need anything from parents.
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    (Original post by tengentoppa)
    I presume you opened a joint account with a parent/guardian. It was my understanding that a 16 year old cannot open a bank account by himself.
    you definitely can as long as you have two forms of ID and the money to do so
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    If at 16 you can consent to have children, you can vote about the future of those children imo
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    (Original post by tengentoppa)
    I presume you opened a joint account with a parent/guardian. It was my understanding that a 16 year old cannot open a bank account by himself.
    I opened one without any parents or guardians at the age of 16. I can't find a law prohibiting people from doing so now. This is rather different to tenancy agreements for 16 year olds, for example, where the law is quite clear but various workarounds exist.

    A quick google found several banks willing to allow 16 year olds to open bank accounts without a parent or guardian - including both banks that I am currently a customer of. Here is an example from Lloyds; https://www.lloydsbank.com/current-a....asp#tab-row-5.

    It is a common misconception.
 
 
 
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