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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Agree with your later point. I do not subscribe to the rules of a Just war (the aim is to win) and therefore if wiping out everybody in Damascus would bring me the head of Bashir Al Assad, i would make that choice.
    And assuming you had Assad's severed head in your right hand, what next? Who runs Syria? What would prevent large portions of the country falling into the hands of hardline fanatic Islamists? What would prevent the country from disintegrating and seeing ethnic and religious minorities being slaughtered by the armed and angry elements of the Sunni population? Do you think you can just click your fingers and see Syria become a peaceful liberal democracy? The West has absolutely no genuine interest in removing Assad, on the contrary it has a lot to lose. I don't like the Assad regime one bit, but the plain fact of the matter is that there are no viable alternatives to him for the time being. Assad is a murderer, yes, he bombs hospitals and innocent people die, yes he tortured and incarcerates his opponents and yes he is responsible for a good deal of war crimes, but so are the "moderate" rebels who we've armed. There is no black and white in this war, but I would be more comfortable in the certainty of an Assad government than the uncertainty and chaos of a Syria without a government.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    No more than they have provoked us in Georgia and Eastern Ukraine. There's little risk of a hot war.

    Open and free markets are in our economic interests and generally so is a belief in democracy (few nations actually vote for war). Russia is closed, nationalistic and corrupt with a questionable comittment to democracy (the 2012 election was not deemed entirely free and fair).

    I don't desire gunboat economics but if you get a situation like the Arab Spring and other nations jumping in then its important to make sure events go your way.
    Russia is certainly a corrupt kleptocratic banana republic, but this does not make it inherently an enemy of us. Foreign policy should be based on pragmatism and national interest. It is true that Russia wishes to exercise a sphere of influence in the ex-Soviet countries around it, however so long as this desire doesn't extend to NATO or EU member states, then we shouldn't be concerned. Short of starting another world war, there is actually nothing we can do to temper those desires. As with Ukraine, you forget that we had a part to play in the overthrow of Viktor Yanukovych. John McCain and the CIA director weren't at Ukraine during Maidan for vacation purposes. We made a massive strategic error to think that we could draw Ukraine into the Western liberal democratic orbit without provoking a Russian response, which it did. Our own alliance comes first. We must strengthen our defenses, British military spending levels are disgracefully low. NATO member states should meet the 2% of GDP target. We should install a missile defense system in Eastern Europe to neutralise the potential of a Russian nuclear threat. However, it is in our interests to cooperate with Russia in Syria, be on good-terms and trade with them as openly as possible. We shouldn't kick a fuss over things which we don't have a major interest in. I'm all for good relations with Ukraine, but our ties with Ukraine aren't so fundamental that we have to risk a new Cold War to defend its sovereignty. Heck, if you ask me, Ukraine should have kept their nukes in 1994 and we shouldn't have promised to defend its territorial integrity, but Ukraine misjudged and now they're paying the price. Not really our problem. We need to stop moralising foreign policy so much.
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    (Original post by Sycatonne23)
    Russia is certainly a corrupt kleptocratic banana republic, but this does not make it inherently an enemy of us. Foreign policy should be based on pragmatism and national interest. It is true that Russia wishes to exercise a sphere of influence in the ex-Soviet countries around it, however so long as this desire doesn't extend to NATO or EU member states, then we shouldn't be concerned.
    We should be concerned then. I'm not saying we don't, everyone does but I naturally think that our moral standard is better than Russia's


    Short of starting another world war, there is actually nothing we can do to temper those desires. As with Ukraine, you forget that we had a part to play in the overthrow of Viktor Yanukovych. John McCain and the CIA director weren't at Ukraine during Maidan for vacation purposes. h.
    We had apart to play sure but we our time was comparatively minor. Ukraine was being systematically sucked dry by a parasitical, incompetent and treasonous Russian funded government.

    (Inb4 some idiot tried to compare thus to the EU- the UK willingly joined by its elected and subsequent representatives and then allowed to peacefully leave after a free and fair referendum)
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    We should be concerned then. I'm not saying we don't, everyone does but I naturally think that our moral standard is better than Russia's




    We had apart to play sure but we our time was comparatively minor. Ukraine was being systematically sucked dry by a parasitical, incompetent and treasonous Russian funded government.

    (Inb4 some idiot tried to compare thus to the EU- the UK willingly joined by its elected and subsequent representatives and then allowed to peacefully leave after a free and fair referendum)
    Our moral standard is better, but we cannot be expected to export that to every area of the world which is deficient. Our own alliance comes first. And yes, there were genuine grievances against Yanukovych, but that should have been a matter solely for the Ukrainian people. We should have had zero involvement in it and we shouldn't have jumped at it as an opportunity to bring Ukraine into our orbit. Even if the Russians didn't object to Ukrainian membership of NATO and the EU today, we still shouldn't accept them because President Poroshenko's government is a kleptocratic rehash of how things worked under Yanukovych, bar the Russian funding.
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    (Original post by Sycatonne23)
    Our moral standard is better, but we cannot be expected to export that to every area of the world which is deficient. Our own alliance comes first. And yes, there were genuine grievances against Yanukovych, but that should have been a matter solely for the Ukrainian people. We should have had zero involvement in it and we shouldn't have jumped at it as an opportunity to bring Ukraine into our orbit. Even if the Russians didn't object to Ukrainian membership of NATO and the EU today, we still shouldn't accept them because President Poroshenko's government is a kleptocratic rehash of how things worked under Yanukovych, bar the Russian funding.
    Ukraine isn't a member of the EU or NATO and its highly unlikely it will be allowed to join the former any time soon.

    We are importing it via globalisation whether we want to or not.

    I don't live in Ukraine nor know too much about it but from what I can gather Poreshenko is at least attempting to dove the problems in Ukraine.
 
 
 
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