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    (Original post by giordano)
    It is difficult to leave Islam alone in a thread discussing Islam.

    Yes, I am aware that the Quran was not written by the Quraish. It is somehow ridiculous however to maintain that the Quraish would have been unable to write a good Surah. What do we know?
    As well as we may know that a group of Rabbis did not write the divine book of Torah, as well as we know that some guy did not write the second half of the bible inventing a guy called Jesus. When I can I expect your research on these subject matters?

    It should be Bashing Islam. That title seems more appropriate. Afterall it is now our job to make muslims, believe what we feel is right (a twisted definition of tolorance if you will), namely, that their book is fake and there is no God. Right? Yes I am sure that is really constructive, Should go down really well with our muslim members.

    Albeit I have no expectations of you, I still list some quotes I found on free-minds.org which explains why doubting would be the same as not being a Muslim. A bit like how I can not be christian, if I don't want to believe in some soft guy called Jesus.


    "You shall strive for the cause of GOD as you should strive for His cause. He has chosen you and has placed no hardship on you in practicing your religion - the religion of your father Abraham..." 22:78
    God established also several rules in His book, the Quran, for His TRUE believers. Breaking any of His rules or refusing any of them means loss, misguidance, misery and eternal suffering. To understand a topic like the DRESS CODE for Muslim Women, we need to review quickly some of these rules established by our Creator, God Almighty, to whom we will be responsible for our deeds. Every rule is important and every rule is meant to be.


    (1) Quran is a complete book, See 6:19,38,114, 115, 12:111 and 50:45.

    "..........We did not leave ANYTHING out of this book." 6:38

    "The word of your Lord is COMPLETE, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient." 6:115

    "No falsehood could enter it (Quran), in the past or in the future; a revelation from a Most Wise, Praiseworthy." 41:42

    ".......All ruling belongs to God, and He has ruled that you shall not worship except Him. This is the perfect religion, but most people do not know.: 12:40 (see also 30:30, 30:43 and 98:5).

    "Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt." 6:114, See also, 7:52, 11:1, 41:3, 10:37 and 12:111

    God calls His book, the Quran, the BEST HADITH. HE called on His true believers to accept no other hadiths as a source of this perfect religion . See 7:185, 31:6, 39:23, 45:6, and 77:50.

    "Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all the things God has created? Does it ever occur to them that the end of their life may be near? Which HADITH, besides this (Quran) do they believe in?" 7:185

    God calls on His true believers to make sure not to fall in the trap of idol-worship by following the words of the scholars instead of the words of God (see 9:31).

    God calls those who prohibit what He did not prohibit, agressors, liars and idol-worshipers. Idol-worship is the only unforgivable sin, if maintained till death. See, 5:87, 9:37, 7:32, 6:119, 6:140 and 10:59.

    "O you who believe, do not prohibit good things that are made lawful by God, and do not agress; God dislikes the aggressors." 5:87

    "Say, "Did you note how God sends down to you all kinds of provisions, then you render some of them unlawful, and some lawful?" Say, "Did God give you permission to do this? Or, do you fabricate lies and attribute them to God?" 10:59

    Muhammed is represented only by the Quran. The Prophet Muhammed was the last Prophet and a messenger of God (33:40). He was not the messenger of God because of who he (Muhammed) was, but because he was given the Quran (the message) to deliver to the world. The religion of Islam is a religion of God, not about Muhammed, who was blessed by God with the delivery of the message of the Quran. He did not have an agenda of his own.

    His job was to deliver to the world what God was giving him, the Quran. See 42:48, 13:40, 5:99-100, Muhammed cannot prohibit things, or make lawful things on his own. When he tried to do that God admonished him publicly, 66:1, 66:1 reminds us that God is the only ONE to prohibit or make things lawful.

    God does not forget. See 19:64. We are not to add to this religion what God deliberately left out and claim it to be from Him or His messenger. His messenger has only ONE message, the Quran. God already told us He does not run out of words. 18:109

    "You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them." 17:36



    I tried shortening it from the authors comments, but if you want the full deal, then this is the link:

    http://www.free-minds.org/women/scarf.htm


    And mind you not all of Quraish were Muslims. Muhammad was the first, his wife thereafter and then his cousin. It would have been impossible to write a surah, when you can't write. Leave other people's faith alone. If you want to question then at least get all the facts before airing your thoughts. It saves time

    try: harunyahya.com

    or/and

    http://www.free-minds.org/quran.htm

    or/and

    http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran

    There is much more but I don't have the time and you probably don't have the interest. If you do I am sure, you can find much on your own online especially.
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    [QUOTE=Outrageous]
    It should be Bashing Islam. That title seems more appropriate. Afterall it is now our job to make muslims, believe what we feel is right (a twisted definition of tolorance if you will), namely, that their book is fake and there is no God. Right? Yes I am sure that is really constructive, Should go down really well with our muslim members.
    .[/QUOTE

    Outrageous,
    I respect Muslims as persons, but I have serious criticism towards Islam. This thread was started by a Muslim who wanted to know about our opinions on Islam and women. Why should we be economical about our thoughts? It is too easy to slander any serious criticism of Islam as Islam-bashing

    I will simply repost here what I have answered you on another thread about Islam

    Confessions of an Islam-basher:

    In the beginning, Islam-bashing is just simply great fun. Islam's advice on treatment of women, homosexuals, adulterers, thieves, infidels (whether "people of the book" or idolaters) is simply appalling, and it is so easy to ridicule it

    The most irritating element , in my view, is the feeling of superiority Islam tries to instil in the "true believers": infidels (people of the book) can be tolerated, but only if they pay special taxes, and are humiliated. A Muslim can marry a Christian woman, but no Muslim woman can marry an infidel; no infidel can exert authority on a Muslim; Muslims and infidels should not be friends etc. etc.

    The second phase starts when you realize that lots of decent people sincerely believe in this religion (however, quite often with a very superficial knowledge of the actual texts). Then you try to calm down, to reason, to interpret; you check different translations, you take objections into account.
    You concentrate on some positive aspects of Islam (there are quite a few: much better to pay tax "with humiliation" than to be burnt alive, as happened to infidels in Christian countries).

    However, my provisional conclusion is that Islam is particularly inadapted to the challenges of a modern, democratic, post-industrial society. It would have to change quite a lot in order to join the mainstream of Western society. But of course it does not want to do that; it wants to change us. And there is the problem: I do not want to live in an Islamic society; I deeply appreciate free-thinking, free mixing, our man-made law, our "appalling, degenerate, crime-ridden, obese" western society.

    So, as much as I respect the millions of sincere Muslims out there, it takes an extraordinary effort not to indulge in Islam-bashing. However, since my objective is dialogue, and not insult, this is an effort which has to be made.
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    (Original post by Outrageous)
    (1) Quran is a complete book, See 6:19,38,114, 115, 12:111 and 50:45.

    "..........We did not leave ANYTHING out of this book." 6:38

    "The word of your Lord is COMPLETE, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient." 6:115

    "No falsehood could enter it (Quran), in the past or in the future; a revelation from a Most Wise, Praiseworthy." 41:42

    ".......All ruling belongs to God, and He has ruled that you shall not worship except Him. This is the perfect religion, but most people do not know.: 12:40 (see also 30:30, 30:43 and 98:5).

    "Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt." 6:114, See also, 7:52, 11:1, 41:3, 10:37 and 12:111

    God calls His book, the Quran, the BEST HADITH. HE called on His true believers to accept no other hadiths as a source of this perfect religion . See 7:185, 31:6, 39:23, 45:6, and 77:50.

    "Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all the things God has created? Does it ever occur to them that the end of their life may be near? Which HADITH, besides this (Quran) do they believe in?" 7:185

    God calls on His true believers to make sure not to fall in the trap of idol-worship by following the words of the scholars instead of the words of God (see 9:31).

    God calls those who prohibit what He did not prohibit, agressors, liars and idol-worshipers. Idol-worship is the only unforgivable sin, if maintained till death. See, 5:87, 9:37, 7:32, 6:119, 6:140 and 10:59.

    "O you who believe, do not prohibit good things that are made lawful by God, and do not agress; God dislikes the aggressors." 5:87

    "Say, "Did you note how God sends down to you all kinds of provisions, then you render some of them unlawful, and some lawful?" Say, "Did God give you permission to do this? Or, do you fabricate lies and attribute them to God?" 10:59

    Muhammed is represented only by the Quran. The Prophet Muhammed was the last Prophet and a messenger of God (33:40). He was not the messenger of God because of who he (Muhammed) was, but because he was given the Quran (the message) to deliver to the world. The religion of Islam is a religion of God, not about Muhammed, who was blessed by God with the delivery of the message of the Quran. He did not have an agenda of his own.

    His job was to deliver to the world what God was giving him, the Quran. See 42:48, 13:40, 5:99-100, Muhammed cannot prohibit things, or make lawful things on his own. When he tried to do that God admonished him publicly, 66:1, 66:1 reminds us that God is the only ONE to prohibit or make things lawful.

    God does not forget. See 19:64. We are not to add to this religion what God deliberately left out and claim it to be from Him or His messenger. His messenger has only ONE message, the Quran. God already told us He does not run out of words. 18:109

    "You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them." 17:36



    I tried shortening it from the authors comments, but if you want the full deal, then this is the link:

    http://www.free-minds.org/women/scarf.htm


    And mind you not all of Quraish were Muslims. Muhammad was the first, his wife thereafter and then his cousin. It would have been impossible to write a surah, when you can't write. Leave other people's faith alone. If you want to question then at least get all the facts before airing your thoughts. It saves time

    try: harunyahya.com

    or/and

    http://www.free-minds.org/quran.htm

    or/and

    http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran

    There is much more but I don't have the time and you probably don't have the interest. If you do I am sure, you can find much on your own online especially.
    it always fascinates me as to why Muslims feel they are unable to express their belief in a religion or explain its virtues without having to provide constant references to the Quran. were religion to be truly spiritual or of divine nature, it should be instilled in your spirit/soul such that there is no requirement to constantly refer to a book for justification.
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    (Original post by vortex_199)
    Why on earth do people say Islam abuses women?
    I live in Saudi Arabia and all I can say is we western women are much more abused than the women here. Saudi women are looked after well. I go to school with saudi girls, all of them have servants, go shopping whenever thy like (usually once a day) and do nothing but talk and play. When I say we dont have a maid they get so sorry for me and wonder how do I cope. People get the impression that muslims prefer son, but most wouldn't trade their daughters for boys.
    As for polygamy it's usually western converts that do it. I suppose its because they used to have girlfriends and be 2-timers and stuff, they cant just give it up. I personally dont know any saudis with more than one wife, Ive heard of one or two.
    I think in some muslim countries it's more culture that oppresses women, not Islam.
    A lot of women here would never take off their covering, Im muslim and will never uncover inshallah. I feel respected and secure, not to have people looking at my figure.
    Islam treats women right, it gave them rights way before the west eg. dowry and inheritance. People are very unfair to it.

    whoa.... coudlnt agree anymore.

    i live in KSA too.... my father works for an American Company, Aramco, so i get to live in both communities...

    saudi women are so confident and they are nothing like 'Slaves' or whatever.
    saudi women know their rights and Islam gives more rights to women than men...

    islam is a cool religon i say
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    (Original post by Lestat)
    Islam gives more rights to women than men...
    i say that is nonsense.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    it always fascinates me as to why Muslims feel they are unable to express their belief in a religion or explain its virtues without having to provide constant references to the Quran. were religion to be truly spiritual or of divine nature, it should be instilled in your spirit/soul such that there is no requirement to constantly refer to a book for justification.
    Surely this is a result of people constantly mis-quoting the Quran to prove some random, flawed justification correct?

    Surely by quoting the Quran as it is, its showing that Islam is not the religion ignorant people always believe it be, and what the actual text shows is the true Islam.

    I would have thought people quote the Quran as it makes more sense, and the chances are people will take this more seriously and accept it, as a pose to someone presenting their personal oppinion, which is often just dismissed as biased and incorrect.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    it always fascinates me as to why Muslims feel they are unable to express their belief in a religion or explain its virtues without having to provide constant references to the Quran. were religion to be truly spiritual or of divine nature, it should be instilled in your spirit/soul such that there is no requirement to constantly refer to a book for justification.

    it always fascinates me as to why you feel that you are unable to express your belief without acquiring the knowledge to substantiate it with?

    "You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them." 17:36

    "..........We did not leave ANYTHING out of this book." 6:38

    Although I am seriously doubting your reading skills, seeing as your question has been answered several times by many.

    The Quran is the guidance for a people called Muslims. Their faith is called Islam. Everything they need to know is in this book or so they believe. From what to eat to how to treat each other. It is not "just" a faith, but a way of life. Islam means submitting to God (Allah). You want them to submit but without the book that the very same God wants them to believe in. Bizarre and absurd.

    If as you suggest they should stop referring to this book, which you do not grasp, then surely the fundamentals of islam as well being Muslim would disappear.

    Why some people can not gain knowledge before opening their mouth is fascinating.

    Instead of asking when you really fail to read the answers I suggest you ask some muslims around yourself who might be able to run through the basic ABC with you.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    i say that is nonsense.
    I would agree. I don't think that muslim women have more rights than muslim men. However I would argue that they have equal rights aslong as they are not liveing in a country which is corrupt.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    i say that is nonsense.
    I say it's nonsense to classify something as nonsense when you can not substantiate that.

    Surely you have some references to the Quran (Islam) to prove its nonsense. Or you must have counted all the rights for both gebnders as stated in the Quran and reached this nonsene result.

    Anything?

    At all?
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    I know this site is probably very biased and should be taken with a pinch of salt but I would advise that you read it because I think it is very interesting and puts its argument well.

    http://al-furqan.5u.com/women.html
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    (Original post by randdom)
    I know this site is probably very biased and should be taken with a pinch of salt but I would advise that you read it because I think it is very interesting and puts its argument well.

    http://al-furqan.5u.com/women.html

    And as you probably read, amidst all the various bits and pieces, the point remains. Islam does not suppress woman. Like I have been saying all along. Muslim Males do and sadly Muslim females too are submitting themselves knowing no better because they do not know their rights. Muslim women today, however, in particular in the west are waking up. Realizing that their demands are not at all feministic but granted already. They are right and the men are wrong.

    And hey,

    What do you think of this site?

    http://www.free-minds.org/women.htm

    Pretty explanatory and free.
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    (Original post by Outrageous)
    And as you probably read, amidst all the various bits and pieces, the point remains. Islam does not suppress woman. Like I have been saying all along. Muslim Males do and sadly Muslim females too are submitting themselves knowing no better because they do not know their rights. Muslim women today, however, in particular in the west are waking up. Realizing that their demands are not at all feministic but granted already. They are right and the men are wrong.
    It is just a few countries that do surpress women, and these aren't correctly following the Qu'ran. At least that was the impression I got while doing my own research into the matter.
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    (Original post by randdom)
    It is just a few countries that do surpress women, and these aren't correctly following the Qu'ran. At least that was the impression I got while doing my own research into the matter.

    Well it is not just a few countries - in my humble opinion but that is because I covered half the middleeast and things may have changed. But how many of "muslim" countries are run by males? In their lies your answer.

    If you keep a man in the dark about his rights, will he know any better?
    Same applies to Muslim women. The cultures is thoroughly rotten by a suppressive mentality and I believe that is the root of the problem.

    But check out the link above. Its pretty cool. Very out there in your face.
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    [QUOTE=giordano]
    (Original post by Outrageous)
    It should be Bashing Islam. That title seems more appropriate. Afterall it is now our job to make muslims, believe what we feel is right (a twisted definition of tolorance if you will), namely, that their book is fake and there is no God. Right? Yes I am sure that is really constructive, Should go down really well with our muslim members.
    .[/QUOTE

    Outrageous,
    I respect Muslims as persons, but I have serious criticism towards Islam. This thread was started by a Muslim who wanted to know about our opinions on Islam and women. Why should we be economical about our thoughts? It is too easy to slander any serious criticism of Islam as Islam-bashing

    I will simply repost here what I have answered you on another thread about Islam

    Confessions of an Islam-basher:

    In the beginning, Islam-bashing is just simply great fun. Islam's advice on treatment of women, homosexuals, adulterers, thieves, infidels (whether "people of the book" or idolaters) is simply appalling, and it is so easy to ridicule it

    The most irritating element , in my view, is the feeling of superiority Islam tries to instil in the "true believers": infidels (people of the book) can be tolerated, but only if they pay special taxes, and are humiliated. A Muslim can marry a Christian woman, but no Muslim woman can marry an infidel; no infidel can exert authority on a Muslim; Muslims and infidels should not be friends etc. etc.

    The second phase starts when you realize that lots of decent people sincerely believe in this religion (however, quite often with a very superficial knowledge of the actual texts). Then you try to calm down, to reason, to interpret; you check different translations, you take objections into account.
    You concentrate on some positive aspects of Islam (there are quite a few: much better to pay tax "with humiliation" than to be burnt alive, as happened to infidels in Christian countries).

    However, my provisional conclusion is that Islam is particularly inadapted to the challenges of a modern, democratic, post-industrial society. It would have to change quite a lot in order to join the mainstream of Western society. But of course it does not want to do that; it wants to change us. And there is the problem: I do not want to live in an Islamic society; I deeply appreciate free-thinking, free mixing, our man-made law, our "appalling, degenerate, crime-ridden, obese" western society.

    So, as much as I respect the millions of sincere Muslims out there, it takes an extraordinary effort not to indulge in Islam-bashing. However, since my objective is dialogue, and not insult, this is an effort which has to be made.

    Ciao Giardano,

    You are contradicting yourself. I mean, how can you respect "the millions of sincere Muslims out there" when they are practising what you dislike, Islam. What exactly are you respecting them for?

    Let us see - female oppression (when islam dictates the oppposite)?

    Or perhaps persecution of innocents and those different and weaker in society (when Islam calls for protection of these)?

    My point remains as I stated elsewhere and I refer you to the reply which accompnied your above repeat view point.

    The problem are muslims and their biased practice of islam. Like hijab. Lok at the big deal they have made over a scarf. Sure I think wear whatever you want. No skin off my nose. But stop claiming it is Islam. Everything I ask muslims about, they claim its islam. If I question their lack of substance (hadiths) they refuse to acknolwedge that. If I ask why they are in such a hurry to call people Kafir (infidel and non believer) they just blame it on islam. Yes islam mentions Kufaar(Kufr - noun not a verb) then why can't we? Oh well only because your God seems to have forbidden that in chapter 39 verse 41 if I am not mistaken.

    The problem which you associate with islam is with Muslims. In the Quran it says religion has no compulsion.Then why are we told the opposite? Be straight or you go to prison? Be submissive or we stone you? Ameena Lawal, a Nigerian woman, was stoned becaused she was raped and thereof bore a child. Rape is a woman's fault? Goodness that feels like a kick back to the stone ages. Instead of focusing on rape they focused on the child out of wedlock. I focused on the rape along with the lack of jurisdiction to run a Shariah ruled system of Justice. Coincidence that every major governing position is run by males? Women can not lead a prayer because the males are so weak sexually that they would soccumb to temptation even when faced with a woman's behind? Are you telling me a man of faith, will rape a woman in front of all other believers in a mosque - and that is ok? Should women veil themselves because men can't control what is between their legs? Our men do not do that. Why are only muslim Males weak? That weak? Well in that case I am all for locking them up. Are they safe to be around at all?

    Are you telling me that is Islam because then I can pretty much show you it is not. It is time consuming but it can be done. But do you really wish to have your views reversed? No respect muslims but dispise their faith? That makes no sense.

    I have met muslim girls who told me that a female should be obedient and work in her house and please her man. Funny that. The prophet's wife worked as his boss and ran a business. Do most muslims know that. A hadith which apparently exists orders a man not to leave the bed until he has pleased his wife. But thans to female circumcision and male conspiracy in the muslim world females can kiss those rights goodbye. And do you really think it is a coincidence that there are only male scholars around whom muslims can turn to? And one such scholar is really concerned with the "problem" of women driving cars. My God, how abundantly backwards and suppressive. Men. Not Islam.

    The point remains, Islam is fine. Some of it's laws such as the special tax rule (jazzikyah) for people of the book, can not be implemented unless you have a khaliffah state and no country has that. And no muslim country that I know of can thus run it or runs it. You fail to look at the context of the Quran. The time and place in which it descended. Some of it's content is not outdated but referred to a specific battle or a special circumstance for the prophet.

    The quran teaches muslims, that He (God) created people in all colors and kinds. So no reason for discrimination. And yet the hadith teaches them otherwise. And yet that does not keep Arabs from viewing Asian and Black muslims as lower beings, and Asian muslims from regarding Black muslims as lower beings. This heirachy exists.

    Look into it, man. Don't just take my word for it. Not like you are and nor should you but surely verify for yourself. Time consuming yes but worth it.



    To you and the rest (especially female muslims),

    I came across this article and I never thought this day would come but here is Islam in the view of muslim women scholars. Alarming and mandatory reading for all muslim femles on here. Just my view.

    http://www.globalwebpost.com/farooqm...en_hadith.html
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    (Original post by Outrageous)
    it always fascinates me as to why you feel that you are unable to express your belief without acquiring the knowledge to substantiate it with?

    http://www.uk-learning.net/showpost....&postcount=261
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    (Original post by Outrageous)
    I say it's nonsense to classify something as nonsense when you can not substantiate that.
    it can be substantiated.

    Surely you have some references to the Quran (Islam) to prove its nonsense.
    i) references in the Quran showing that women DONT HAVE MORE rights than men?
    ii) i dont need a book to judge what oppression man can bring against a woman, empowered by, or finding justification in the name of a religion. the Human Rights record of any Islamic state speaks the application/reality of Islam.
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    And? Your point is what? If any?

    That link does not substantiate your post at all, you know? You are making no sense what so ever.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    i can be substantiated.


    i) references in the Quran showing that women DONT HAVE MORE rights than men?
    ii) i dont need a book to judge what oppression man can bring against a woman, empowered by, or finding justification in the name of a religion. the Human Rights record of any Islamic state speaks the application/reality of Islam.
    They may try to justify it useing there religion but if it goes against the teaching of the religions then it is no justification at all.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    i can be substantiated.
    Whether you can be substantiated was not the question. I did not doubt your human form. But good thing we cleared that.

    And if you can substantiate anything you say in this topic, then why don't you? So far we still only have "yes I can" "I think" but no evidence. So no you can not substantiate because that woudl require you reading through the entire Quran and making a list of rights for men and one for women. Otherwise you got nothing.


    i) references in the Quran showing that women DONT HAVE MORE rights than men?
    ii) i dont need a book to judge what oppression man can bring against a woman, empowered by, or finding justification in the name of a religion. the Human Rights record of any Islamic state speaks the application/reality of Islam.
    What references? Surely you have them all tucked away in two lists right? Tell me you do or else don't bother. Man and women are equal but have different strengths and weaknesses and the world has evolved since year 670. Muslim women work and are no longer dependent. Oh and don't bother ripping out verses with out the rightful context.

    No but the Muslims do need their book or they need not call them Muslims. How many times do you need this repeated.

    And I am sure muslims DO NOT need YOUR definition of oppression or empowerment either. That is yours and do not think the east will agree with the definitions enforced onto them by the West.

    And no seeing as I work for a human rights organization, I know we do not blame Islam for the injustice. We do blame the manmade courts and laws , run and implemented by men because they account to nobody.

    Still awaiting your substantiation but something tells me this will be a long wait and I shouldn't hold my breath
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    (Original post by randdom)
    They may try to justify it useing there religion but if it goes against the teaching of the religions then it is no justification at all.
    religion is more than a book, itself intepreted and created by man. anyone who feels empowered or enlightened by means of reading and regurgitating a book is not a religious person in my eyes.
 
 
 
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