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M421 - Russian Sanctions Motion 2017 Watch

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    You need to demonstrate meaningful harm to the UK economy, if it's knocked a fiver off the GDP of Croydon, for instance, that is still economic harm but ultimately irrelevant and perfectly acceptable.
    If Western corporations are having their operations in Russia restricted there is going to be some harm there, however, the economy is a minor point that should be ignored. Weakening sanctions on Russia would mark a change in foreign policy from a realist foreign policy to a cautious, pragmatic foreign policy grounded in idealism.
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    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    If Western corporations are having their operations in Russia restricted there is going to be some harm there, however, the economy is a minor point that should be ignored. Weakening sanctions on Russia would mark a change in foreign policy from a realist foreign policy to a cautious, pragmatic foreign policy grounded in idealism.
    So you're against your own motion that you've been defending?
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Nay.

    To no longer impose sanctions would be to capitulate to Russian aggression.



    Are you suggestions that nations should not form strategic alliances?

    WW1 came about because Russia (without any treaty even) chose to defend Serbia from the Austria-Hungarian Empire. Germany then used this as an opportunity to expand its borders and immediately declared war on Russia as a pretext to invading France and Belgium.

    I'm not sure the UN has anything to do with these sanctions. I largely oppose the UN.



    The war in eastern Ukraine is actually getting worse, that however is reason to increase sanctions.

    ........

    I implore the government to dispatch our forces to the black sea and eastern Europe while substantially increasing the military budget.
    Countries should form alliances, one to one. Not large multinational alliances which split the world. Russia has done nothing to us. We have no interests in Crimea that need protecting. Russia isn't just invading for the sake of land-grabbing, but its people clearly support the action and there has been a vote. We should condemn the actions but causing the ordinary people of Russia to suffer just to prove a point isn't the right way to go about things.

    It's just political games by Putin. Moves and countermoves. Don't think the EU is completely innocent in this. They have been purposely provoking Russia by pulling Ukraine further and further away from Russia's sphere of influence. An argument can be clearly made that the EU is doing landgrabbing of its own.

    Remember that after the fall of the USSR, the border where Russia ends and a different country begins have been in many cases drawn completely arbitrarily or in a way that doesn't make sense (which has led to conflict as we see in many countries in CIS states).

    This conflict is simply the remnants of the fall of the soviet union.

    Sanctions on strong powers don't work. full stop. When you make the people angry, the politicians won't just back down, the people would vote in even angrier politicians who will be even more aggressive in spite of what the west is doing to them.

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    So you're against your own motion that you've been defending?
    I support changing Britain's stance on Russia, however, the reasoning in the motion could be changed.
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    (Original post by BobBobson)
    Countries should form alliances, one to one. Not large multinational alliances which split the world. Russia has done nothing to us. We have no interests in Crimea that need protecting. Russia isn't just invading for the sake of land-grabbing, but its people clearly support the action and there has been a vote. We should condemn the actions but causing the ordinary people of Russia to suffer just to prove a point isn't the right way to go about things.

    It's just political games by Putin. Moves and countermoves. Don't think the EU is completely innocent in this. They have been purposely provoking Russia by pulling Ukraine further and further away from Russia's sphere of influence. An argument can be clearly made that the EU is doing landgrabbing of its own.

    Remember that after the fall of the USSR, the border where Russia ends and a different country begins have been in many cases drawn completely arbitrarily or in a way that doesn't make sense (which has led to conflict as we see in many countries in CIS states).

    This conflict is simply the remnants of the fall of the soviet union.

    Sanctions on strong powers don't work. full stop. When you make the people angry, the politicians won't just back down, the people would vote in even angrier politicians who will be even more aggressive in spite of what the west is doing to them.

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    Hear, hear. Crimea was originally part of the Russian SFSR, but was handed over to the Ukrainian SFSR to administer for the sake of convenience. Back then, it did not matter, as the USSR was one country. But after the breakup of the USSR, Crimea should have been returned to Russia, as its people are Russian and it does not belong to Ukraine.
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    (Original post by Unown Uzer)
    Hear, hear. Crimea was originally part of the Russian SFSR, but was handed over to the Ukrainian SFSR to administer for the sake of convenience. Back then, it did not matter, as the USSR was one country. But after the breakup of the USSR, Crimea should have been returned to Russia, as its people are Russian and it does not belong to Ukraine.
    Should they also annex Alaska and Mexico invade Texas too?

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Should they also annex Alaska and Mexico invade Texas too?

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    The case with Alaska is different though. Alaska does not have a majority of citizens who identify themselves as Russian. Crimea does.

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Should they also annex Alaska and Mexico invade Texas too?

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    No, the respective countries willingly sold those to the US, with the knowledge the territory was going to be transferred to another country. The Moscow government did not expect to be transferring Crimea to another country when they let the Ukrainian SFSR administer it.
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    (Original post by Unown Uzer)
    No, the respective countries willingly sold those to the US, with the knowledge the territory was going to be transferred to another country. The Moscow government did not expect to be transferring Crimea to another country when they let the Ukrainian SFSR administer it.
    Mexico sold Texas? I think a great many Texans and Crockett fans would be more than happy point our the error there; remember the Alamo.

    And the Russian SSR handed Crimea over to the Ukrainian SSR, and even if we ignore land disputes modern borders do not match with the internal borders of the USSR.

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    (Original post by wolfmoon88)
    The case with Alaska is different though. Alaska does not have a majority of citizens who identify themselves as Russian. Crimea does.

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    No, the majority are ethnic Russians, there is a difference. It's also true in the baltic states, would it therefore also justify the defiling of their national sovereignty? How about us annexing new England? That used to be ours and most of the population is ethnically European descended mostly from British and Irish immigrants.

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    No, the majority are ethnic Russians, there is a difference. It's also true in the baltic states, would it therefore also justify the defiling of their national sovereignty? How about us annexing new England? That used to be ours and most of the population is ethnically European descended mostly from British and Irish immigrants.

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    Do the people of New England want to be part of the UK? The people of Crimea by a vast majority want to be part of Russia.
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    (Original post by Connor27)
    Abstain, I think the sanctions are righteous and deserved for Putin's aggressive attitude to Syria and illegal annexation of Crimea.

    However, on the other hand I do acknowledge that removing sanctions would boost the economy by allowing for more trade with Russia and potentially allowing russian businesses to thrive in the UK.
    I agree completely.
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    Aye, Russia's crimes are probably not worthy of sanctions. If anything we should be sanctioning regimes that chop off hands and stone women
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    Nay from me. Rakas put it perfectly, nothing more needs to be said imo.
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    Nay as well.
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    This motion has entered cessation!
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    Division! Clear the Lobbies!
 
 
 
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