Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by swervybang)
    Some are good, some are bad
    you cant judge a barrel of apples by biting in to one of them!
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Onde)
    We live in the most secular time in history, but also the most peaceful in terms of the numbers being killed in wars and through homicide.

    I think the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is a good standard of good and evil, and of course, each society has its own laws.

    The modern age is certainly preferable to living in the 7th century where religious demagogues were encouraging their followers to kill and terrorise those who did not follow their ideology, until there was worship only for their particular god.

    People should do things in line with their conscience, informed by reason, and not because some unobservable deity apparently wishes them to act a certain way.
    You think we live in the most peaceful times and you think that the UN have principles?! Where was the UN and the good secular system that rules us when the people of Myanmar (the Horingha) were persecuted in 10s of thousands including children whom some of which were burned alive and thrown in rivers? And when the people of Iraq were attacked by the so-called secular regimes and whose country still suffers til this day (millions have been killed and millions displaced from their homes). That attack was based on a bogus claim of weapons of mass destruction. Where was the UN and the secular regimes when millions have been killed and displaced from their homes in Syria? Get real!
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by QE2)
    So when you claimed that the Quran contained..
    "very clearly, verses that command the Muslims to be good and just to the disbelievers"
    ...you were making it up? Or had you just accepted the party line and not really thought about what that verse actually meant? Don't worry, many would-be Muslim apologists make the same kind ofschoolboy error.
    (Top Tip - don't assume that anything you read on the internet is true until you have cross-checked it against multiple, independent sources)
    It is obvious that you are not very knowledgable about the Quran and that you take your information from the Internet. You have to understand that in general the Quran commands the Muslims to be harsh with the disbelievers during war (but exempts women, children and worshippers) and to treat them well during the time of peace. Hence Muslims are allowed to marry from the Christians and Jews while they keep their faith. This is well known to anyone who is familiar with the teachings of the Quran and the religion of Islam.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by humblelearner)
    It is obvious that you are not very knowledgable about the Quran and that you take your information from the Internet.
    You were the one who made a fallacious claim about the content of the Quran (that Muslims are commanded to treat disbelievers with kindness). A claim that is usually propogated on Islamic internet sites, but I showed to be false using only the Quran and classical tafsir.
    Mind that irony, it can burn.

    You have to understand that in general the Quran commands the Muslims to be harsh with the disbelievers during war (but exempts women, children and worshippers) and to treat them well during the time of peace.
    Again, wrong. If you had read the Quran (also using a tafsir helps) you would know that Allah prescribes harsh treatment for all those who refuse to submit to Islam. A state of war is assumed against those who resist. Conversion or dhimmitude are the only means of guaranteeing peace and safety. From Ibn Kathir's tafsir of 9:5..."This way, they will have no choice, but to die or embrace Islam". This verse was revealed during a time of peace, after Islam had become the dominant power in the region - which is why it gives the disbelievers four months to decide whether to convert or leave before being hunted down and killed ("So travel freely for four months throughout the land" - not something you allow your enemies during war). Hardly being treated well.

    Hence Muslims are allowed to marry from the Christians and Jews while they keep their faith. This is well known to anyone who is familiar with the teachings of the Quran and the religion of Islam.
    Only men though. Muslim women cannot marry Christian or Jewish men. Why the gender inequality?
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Onde)
    The Islamic idea of peace is the killing of all opposition.
    To be fair, they are given the opportunity of conversion, dhimmitude or exile as a means of avoiding death (although theoretically, there could eventually be no place of exile available).
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    Religion of peace
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by QE2)
    You were the one who made a fallacious claim about the content of the Quran (that Muslims are commanded to treat disbelievers with kindness). A claim that is usually propogated on Islamic internet sites, but I showed to be false using only the Quran and classical tafsir.
    Mind that irony, it can burn.

    Again, wrong. If you had read the Quran (also using a tafsir helps) you would know that Allah prescribes harsh treatment for all those who refuse to submit to Islam. A state of war is assumed against those who resist. Conversion or dhimmitude are the only means of guaranteeing peace and safety. From Ibn Kathir's tafsir of 9:5..."This way, they will have no choice, but to die or embrace Islam". This verse was revealed during a time of peace, after Islam had become the dominant power in the region - which is why it gives the disbelievers four months to decide whether to convert or leave before being hunted down and killed ("So travel freely for four months throughout the land" - not something you allow your enemies during war). Hardly being treated well.

    Only men though. Muslim women cannot marry Christian or Jewish men. Why the gender inequality?
    Again, you are taking things out of context by referring to the commenatry of verse 9:5. If you look at verse 9: 6:

    And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.

    Verse 9:6 is was among one of the last verses revealed. It set the way in which Muslims are ordered to deal with non-Muslims. The verse clearly states that if a polytheist is seeking refuge, he is given it and helped to get back to his place of safety safely.

    So where do you get your information from about all disbelievers having to be killed?
    There is clear misunderstanding in what you are saying which I will deal with in due time.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by humblelearner)
    So where do you get your information from about all disbelievers having to be killed? There is clear misunderstanding in what you are saying which I will deal with in due time.
    First, I have never claimed that "all disbelievers must be killed".
    Second, I get all my information from the Quran, the sunnah of Muhammad, and classical tafsir. And from those sources, it is clear that all those who refuse to submit to Islam may be (not must be) killed.

    Again, you are taking things out of context by referring to the commenatry of verse 9:5. If you look at verse 9: 6:
    I'm not sure if "context" means what you think it means.

    Regarding 9:6, that was merely an instruction to allow safe passage for certain circumstances. From Ibn Kathir...
    The Ayah says, `We legislated giving such people safe passage so that they may learn about the religion of Allah, so that Allah's call will spread among His servants. Ibn Abi Najih narrated that Mujahid said that this Ayah, "Refers to someone who comes to you to hear what you say and what was revealed to you (O Muhammad). Therefore, he is safe until he comes to you, hears Allah's Words and then proceeds to the safe area where he came from.''
    In summary, those who come from a land at war with Muslims to the area of Islam, delivering a message, for business transactions, to negotiate a peace treaty, to pay the Jizyah, to offer an end to hostilities, and so forth, and request safe passage from Muslim leaders or their deputies, should be granted safe passage, as long as they remain in Muslim areas, until they go back to their land and sanctuary.

    Verse 9:6 is was among one of the last verses revealed. It set the way in which Muslims are ordered to deal with non-Muslims. The verse clearly states that if a polytheist is seeking refuge, he is given it and helped to get back to his place of safety safely.
    9:6 just gives safe passage from the command to kill those who refuse to submit to Islam, to disbelievers who are willing to listen to Allah's message (or are on another errand). If a disbeliever refuses and claims his right to defend his own belief (just as Muslims claim the right to defend theirs) then they are liable to the instructions of 9:5, which Muhammad clarified with "I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, establish the prayer and pay the Zakah."

    If Sura 9 lays down the way in which Muslims are to treat disbelievers from thence onwards, then the only Muslims who are following it properly are ISIS (which is what they claim). It even instructs Muslims to fight against Jews and Christians, people who had been given an easier time in earlier sura.It continues with references to fighting against the disbelievers throughout sura 9.

    Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection. (9:29)

    Those who believe in Allah and the Last Day would not ask permission of you to be excused from fighting with their wealth and their lives. (9:44)

    O Prophet, fight against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh upon them. (99:73)...and so on...

    He also spends a lot of time on those who claim to be Muslims but won't "fight with their lives and property in the way of Allah". Allah doesn't like these people and they will be punished. There are quite a lot of Muslims today who claim that they are not supposed to fight against the disbelievers.
 
 
 
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    Would you like to hibernate through the winter months?
    Useful resources
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.