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    (Original post by gwaggy)
    By all means, abstain; hopefully forever.

    But don't shove your opinion down other's throats.

    If I want an abortion, I will have an abortion.
    If I want sex, I will have sex.
    If I want contraception, I will have contraception.

    Your opinion does not change mine, or anyone else's.

    All you do is p*ss us off.
    Opinions do change minds, and I hope to keep changing them. The truth is, people are told about abortions without knowing the full gravity of them, what they consist of and how they are performed. You lot getting pissed off gives me the confirmation that I'm doing something, and I will continue to talk about it in the hope that the law will one day change.
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    (Original post by Willy Pete)
    I'm not the biggest fan of needles at the best of times. Needles even vaguely close to my crown jewels is a no.
    You're sedated!! Google how an IUD is put in! I'd take an injection any day!
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    (Original post by mashbbk)
    What do you believe in the case where you become pregnant due to rape? Would you be against abortion in this case?
    I would say that we should track down the rapist and either castrate him or kill him. Those are your two options, pick either one.
    Also, killing babies is wrong.

    ??

    They're two completely different subjects. The source of the pregnancy is irrelevant in regards to the life of the baby. That's not to say it isn't emotionally difficult for the mother, but who can honestly see a living baby, look at a living baby and say that the killing of that baby, abortion, was preferable to the adoption of that baby by somebody else. If the mother doesn't want him/her, there are plenty of people who do.
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    (Original post by Joel 96)
    They're two completely different subjects. The source of the pregnancy is irrelevant in regards to the life of the baby. That's not to say it isn't emotionally difficult for the mother, but who can honestly see a living baby, look at a living baby and say that the killing of that baby, abortion, was preferable to the adoption of that baby by somebody else. If the mother doesn't want him/her, there are plenty of people who do.
    So explain why there are still children / babies in care, if there are PLENTY of people who want them? Would you be willing to adopt? Your argument is quite invalid in that case if you can't even say that :P

    Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but when it comes to things like this, its a personal choice - one which isn't easily changed by the opinion of people they're talking in a thread with online.
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    (Original post by Joel 96)
    I would say that we should track down the rapist and either castrate him or kill him. Those are your two options, pick either one.
    Also, killing babies is wrong.

    ??

    They're two completely different subjects. The source of the pregnancy is irrelevant in regards to the life of the baby. That's not to say it isn't emotionally difficult for the mother, but who can honestly see a living baby, look at a living baby and say that the killing of that baby, abortion, was preferable to the adoption of that baby by somebody else. If the mother doesn't want him/her, there are plenty of people who do.

    So killing people is wrong, until they done a crime worthy of being killed?

    Killing of a fetus is not the same as killing a baby though is it really.

    Also, you propose adoption as the alternative to abortion, you are however forgetting two things:

    a) Adoption isn't available everywhere in the world as an option.

    b) Should the woman not have a choice of whether she is to endure 9 months of pregnancy? Going through pregnancy and labour changes ones body, is mentally and physically tough, may mean you will be out of work/lose a job, and in the worst case scenario, get injured or even die during birth.

    This is a sensitive topic and it is a tough question, but how can you give more rights to an unborn child over the mother/father in question?

    Abortion, may not be nice to think of - but when a child is un-cared for, it is even more sad than an abortion.

    Both sides can argue till the cows come home, but while there is no conclusion on the matter, it cannot be correct to force women to have the children.
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    (Original post by Joel 96)
    Opinions do change minds, and I hope to keep changing them. The truth is, people are told about abortions without knowing the full gravity of them, what they consist of and how they are performed. You lot getting pissed off gives me the confirmation that I'm doing something, and I will continue to talk about it in the hope that the law will one day change.
    Women are fully aware of the 'gravity' of abortions. Idiots remind us all the time.
    The idea is also quite easy to grasp: you are removing a foetus from it's host, either surgically or through an abortifacient.

    We are p*ssed off. At your stupidity and inability to open your mind to the idea you may not be correct on this.

    The law will never change sweetheart. Not when there's 30 million women to protest it (plus all the men with a brain) in this country alone.

    Also, I have yet to see one opinion you have changed here.

    We are all entitled to our own opinions, however uneducated they are, but that doesn't make them correct.

    Also: NO UTERUS NO OPINION

    You have no rights to tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her body. I stand with every women* ever on this argument.

    *And intelligent men

    Thus:

    Contraception, abortion and, heck let's throw in Women's Rights too, will always exist. As they should do.

    And that will never change, no matter how many meninists throw a hissy-fit outside Parliament,
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    (Original post by Morganblue68)
    So explain why there are still children / babies in care, if there are PLENTY of people who want them? Would you be willing to adopt? Your argument is quite invalid in that case if you can't even say that :P
    I haven't even thought about adopting, let alone get in a relationship with somebody. Hypothetically, I would talk to my partner about adopting. I think it's an extremely noble act and benefits families.

    (Original post by Morganblue68)
    Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but when it comes to things like this, its a personal choice - one which isn't easily changed by the opinion of people they're talking in a thread with online.
    "Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but"

    So I'm not entitled?
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    (Original post by mashbbk)
    So killing people is wrong, until they done a crime worthy of being killed?
    Look, let's save the death penalty talk for another time. If you make a thread on it, I will gladly contribute.

    (Original post by mashbbk)
    Killing of a fetus is not the same as killing a baby though is it really.
    How so? As far as I'm concerned, the word "fetus", nice Latin word which you kindly used, is simply there to dehumanize.

    (Original post by mashbbk)
    Also, you propose adoption as the alternative to abortion, you are however forgetting two things:

    a) Adoption isn't available everywhere in the world as an option.
    Let's stick to the country we're currently living in.

    (Original post by mashbbk)
    b) Should the woman not have a choice of whether she is to endure 9 months of pregnancy? Going through pregnancy and labour changes ones body, is mentally and physically tough, may mean you will be out of work/lose a job, and in the worst case scenario, get injured or even die during birth.
    There are consequences to rash actions. I have more sympathy for someone who got impregnated unwillingly, but I still wouldn't support the killing of the baby. The last bit you mentioned, about the health of the mother and possible death, is an important one that divides the pro-life movement. Many people make the exception of abortion in this circumstance, but I've yet to see an example of where an abortion is the only possible way you can save the mother's life. I'm not sure it's raised often enough.

    (Original post by mashbbk)
    This is a sensitive topic and it is a tough question, but how can you give more rights to an unborn child over the mother/father in question?
    Again, I'm not sure what you're asking me. I believe that all human beings, no matter what stage of development, sexuality, nationality, all human beings should have the same rights. It is fundamental that we do not decrease the value of anybody.

    Also, I'm not responding to gwaggy, somebody who relies on pejoratives and ad hominems to make an argument.
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      (Original post by Joel 96)
      Jeepers! Almost as if the purpose of sexual intercourse wasn't for exactly that - procreation.
      Things can have more than one purpose :rofl:
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      (Original post by Joel 96)
      I haven't even thought about adopting, let alone get in a relationship with somebody. Hypothetically, I would talk to my partner about adopting. I think it's an extremely noble act and benefits families.



      "Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but"

      So I'm not entitled?
      You are not entitled to make someone's opinion for them.

      You are allowed your own opinion, no matter how flawed. That does not mean you can then accost others whose views differ.

      My opinion could be to have you castrated. Does that mean it's correct? Does that mean that my view usurps yours?

      Furthermore, your point is invalid. The poster said that everyone is allowed their own opinion but abortion is a personal one.

      So no you are not entitled. You are not entitled to chose whether or not someone can get an abortion. You are not responsible for anyone's body.

      And if you believe you are, you need some psychological help.
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      (Original post by Tabstercat)
      Things can have more than one purpose :rofl:
      Oh yes, like that emoji.
      It could be there to emphasize how overly witty and clever your response is...
      Or it could be there to symbolize that your knowledge on biology is seizure-inducing.
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      (Original post by Joel 96)
      Look, I appreciate that you're at least trying to refute what I say in an amicable manner, but I find it increasingly difficult to debate someone who makes room for the killing of human babies in society.
      So in your opinion, your opinion is correct, and there is no debate on the issue. Because everyone who holds opposing views is "difficult".

      And you are intellectually dishonest, no one is proposing killing babies. We are talking about a fetus. Not a baby.

      As I said above, you do not actually have a single argument and hence you cannot debate - people show you wrong.

      All you have is your "morality" or "conscience" and you cannot comprehend that someone might have different ones.
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        (Original post by Joel 96)
        Oh yes, like that emoji.
        It could be there to emphasize how overly witty and clever your response is...
        Or it could be there to symbolize that your knowledge on biology is seizure-inducing.
        I'm not talking about biology you dolt.
        You really think every human action or process has only one function?
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        (Original post by Joel 96)
        Oh yes, like that emoji.
        It could be there to emphasize how overly witty and clever your response is...
        Or it could be there to symbolize that your knowledge on biology is seizure-inducing.
        No, it's pointing out how absolutely ridiculous your arguments are, that you are making people laugh.

        In addition, you are not engaging with the argument made, because you cannot. You do this over and over again and it's becoming boring.
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        (Original post by Joel 96)
        Look, let's save the death penalty talk for another time. If you make a thread on it, I will gladly contribute.
        I was just a little surprised that you was willing to forgo a mothers right for pro-life reasons but also supported the death penalty, when many would oppose the death penalty on similar grounds for pro-life.


        How so? As far as I'm concerned, the word "fetus", nice Latin word which you kindly used, is simply there to dehumanize.
        But a fetus isn't as human as an actual born human though is it? What if a woman had an abortion within the first few weeks, would you say that is exactly the same as near the end of pregnancy?


        Let's stick to the country we're currently living in.
        But surely you are not pro-life only in countries which allow abortion? Are you suggesting you are okay with abortion if no adoption facility exists - I am sure you aren't - so my argument holds well here.

        There are consequences to rash actions. I have more sympathy for someone who got impregnated unwillingly, but I still wouldn't support the killing of the baby. The last bit you mentioned, about the health of the mother and possible death, is an important one that divides the pro-life movement. Many people make the exception of abortion in this circumstance, but I've yet to see an example of where an abortion is the only possible way you can save the mother's life. I'm not sure it's raised often enough.

        Again, I'm not sure what you're asking me. I believe that all human beings, no matter what stage of development, sexuality, nationality, all human beings should have the same rights. It is fundamental that we do not decrease the value of anybody.
        Your sympathy isn't wanted by those who are impregnated unwillingly, they just want to be able to do as they will with their body. Secondly, the effects on the mothers life is not always pre-determinable. Why force a woman to go through this risk because you feel she shouldn't have the choice of what to do with the baby? Why are you making calls for her.

        Let's say a woman was about to get a abortion because she doesn't want the baby at all and doesn't care for it, or she can't afford it and the child is likely to be malnutritioned, potentially abused because the child is unwanted - but due to laws, was forced to go ahead with the baby.

        How is this situation good for the baby, or society? Would you be proud that the baby lives only to suffer for the rest of its life, if not an early end, from abuse or starvation?

        You see, in an ideal world Joel, we would love to be able to guarantee that the baby is looked after and cared for, but we can't. No system in the world, not even a developed country like UK can do that (so just imagine in say Africa). Your stance will only result in many babies and children suffering. And at the cost of removing the right of a woman to have a choice with her birth.
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        (Original post by Joel 96)
        Look, let's save the death penalty talk for another time. If you make a thread on it, I will gladly contribute.



        How so? As far as I'm concerned, the word "fetus", nice Latin word which you kindly used, is simply there to dehumanize.



        Let's stick to the country we're currently living in.



        There are consequences to rash actions. I have more sympathy for someone who got impregnated unwillingly, but I still wouldn't support the killing of the baby. The last bit you mentioned, about the health of the mother and possible death, is an important one that divides the pro-life movement. Many people make the exception of abortion in this circumstance, but I've yet to see an example of where an abortion is the only possible way you can save the mother's life. I'm not sure it's raised often enough.



        Again, I'm not sure what you're asking me. I believe that all human beings, no matter what stage of development, sexuality, nationality, all human beings should have the same rights. It is fundamental that we do not decrease the value of anybody.

        Also, I'm not responding to gwaggy, somebody who relies on pejoratives and ad hominems to make an argument.
        I take that to mean you don't have an argument to reply with.

        Also, to state my differing opinion as pejoratives is pathetic. Expect people to use harsh words with you. This isn't primary - things aren't going to be sugar coated. Frankly I view your opinion as horrifically medieval and as pejoratively anti-women yet have given rational arguments nonetheless.

        I find that most of my issue surrounds the idea that this isn't an issue that should concerns you. You are male and have no understanding of what pregnancy is like. You never will, therefore your entire view is invalid. So why continue like this?

        Do you want women to suffer unnecessarily?
        You say people can adopt, yet thousands of children aren't.
        Pregnancy has it's toll on a woman and has long term effects.
        What about rape, incest, abuse?
        What if it will kill the women, child or both?
        What about mental and physical effects on both mother and other members of the family?

        I have (as have many others) stated reasons why you are incorrect in some of your views. You can be pro-life but respect other's opinions. This you fail to do.

        Therefore on the 'pejorative' front I find you a hypocrite.

        I understand that you may think that certain attributes are wrong. I can even start to understand why, but unless you are in a situation that many women find themselves in, you can have no idea what it is like. Thus I find your opinion too uneducated. Perhaps you should talk to women who have actually been in this scenario.

        It's not a clean-cut situation and never is.
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        (Original post by Tabstercat)
        I'm not talking about biology you dolt.
        Yes, you are.

        (Original post by yudothis)
        So in your opinion, your opinion is correct, and there is no debate on the issue. Because everyone who holds opposing views is "difficult".
        No, I'm very open-minded. I've questioned my views and reconsidered my position on abortion a hundred times, but I just don't have it in me to support concentration-camp ********.

        (Original post by yudothis)
        And you are intellectually dishonest, no one is proposing killing babies. We are talking about a fetus. Not a baby.
        > As if there's a distinction to be made.

        (Original post by yudothis)
        you do not actually have a single argument
        Check the last 3 pages. What about the bit concerning fertility rates?
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        (Original post by Joel 96)
        Yes, you are.



        No, I'm very open-minded. I've questioned my views and reconsidered my position on abortion a hundred times, but I just don't have it in me to support concentration-camp ********.



        > As if there's a distinction to be made.



        Check the last 3 pages. What about the bit concerning fertility rates?
        No, you are not. You are in fact filth for comparing it to KZ, have you ever even been to one?

        Yes there is. Again, your complete inability to understand logic and reasoning. Your entire "argument" is just opinion.

        Your argument is "we should have a higher fertility rate" (subjective) and "without contraception we would have". You are basically saying "sex is just for procreation" and you are implicitly arguing for accidental pregnancies, i.e. unwanted babies (if people wanted more babies they would, you are arguing let's take contraception away so fertility goes up, but the want for babies is still the same, i.e. more unwated babies as part of your increased fertility). Great argument. Great opinion, too, that sex is not for pleasure and has a sole purpose of procreation. You will find that the vast majority of people will disagree with that (even ones against abortion). And again you are arguing purely based on your opinion and trying to assert that onto others.
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        (Original post by Joel 96)
        Yes, you are.



        No, I'm very open-minded. I've questioned my views and reconsidered my position on abortion a hundred times, but I just don't have it in me to support concentration-camp ********.



        > As if there's a distinction to be made.



        Check the last 3 pages. What about the bit concerning fertility rates?
        There is one hell of a distinction between a baby and a foetus.

        Also, 'concentration camp'? Please elaborate. Abortions were around long before then. Abortifacients have been around for millennia. Abortions have been performed long before the 1800s. In the States they were legal until the 19th-ish century.

        Concentration camps did medical experiments but none of these were purposely abortions for the point of an abortion.

        The main point of the Nazi concentration camps (which I believe you are referring to) was for the eradication of the Jews.

        Concentration camps were actually a British invention in the Boer War, used as labour camps. The Nazis borrowed the idea and upped the ante, if you will.

        Therefore this terminology is incorrect.

        I'm assuming then that you also disagree with modern medicine, as it is a direct descendant of WWI and WWII. For example, Penicillin was created as a medicine in 1942 and mass produced for helping in the war against the Nazis

        Finally, you may not reply to me, but I will continue replying to you as your opinion need to be countered
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        Support team note: This thread is not about abortion, it's about male contraception. Please can we have the abortion chat in a different thread. Anything after this post will be removed. Thanks.
       
       
       
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