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    (Original post by CoffeeGeek)
    No. As aforementioned, in most cases in real life it does work to replace failing management (obviously after some time to allow them to improve).
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    Ain't that an oxymoron?... (edit: lol nvm)


    How much time, is there a provision for leaving this much time in the Bill?

    Also, sources?
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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    How much time, is there a provision for leaving this much time in the Bill?

    Also, sources?
    They should be given 18 months to improve like the Education Quality Act states.

    I know anecdotal evidence won't suffice for you. But I did find one example where it has worked, but this is with the "super heads" instead of the whole SLT... the Internet limits me unfortunately...
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    (Original post by CoffeeGeek)
    They should be given 18 months to improve like the Education Quality Act states.

    I know anecdotal evidence won't suffice for you. But I did find one example where it has worked, but this is with the "super heads" instead of the whole SLT... the Internet limits me unfortunately...
    Ultimately, teachers don't want to work at poorly performing schools. They tend to be less enjoyable and worse for one's career than well-performing schools. Without adding additional incentives, there is no reason to think that they would get top management installed.
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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    Ultimately, teachers don't want to work at poorly performing schools. They tend to be less enjoyable and worse for one's career than well-performing schools. Without adding additional incentives, there is no reason to think that they would get top management installed.
    Incentives such as?
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    (Original post by CoffeeGeek)
    Incentives such as?
    The most common incentive relating to employment tends to be a fairly simple one: more money.
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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    The most common incentive relating to employment tends to be a fairly simple one: more money.
    That already happens. Teachers do tend to get paid more at failing schools...
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    (Original post by ByronicHero)
    Assistant head teacher is an established position in our education system. They share many of the same responsibilities as deputies, but not the obligation to replace the head on short-notice and various other little bits and pieces that don't matter here. The point is, they didn't just make it up for this bill.
    I do find it a bit bizarre to establish what should be a school's leadership team in such a bill though.

    I'm still not sure what a business manager of a school does, I know of schools that have one but mine didn't so I don't really understand where they are separate from the headteacher and the office staff.
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    'Leftists' believe that in the free market disadvantage people find it immensely difficult to improve their lot in life (if not impossible in a totally free market) and so to ensure social mobility the state must intervene. By your vote, it is clear you agree.
    Who said we believe in an entire free market?
    A complete free market doesn't work , just like communism doesn't work.
    You believe in equal outcome.
    I on the other hand believe in making opportunity more equal. I do accept outcome will be very different!
    This bill is a step in the right direction.
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    Really quick replies (sorry) as I have to leave shortly:

    (Original post by Saracen's Fez)
    I do find it a bit bizarre to establish what should be a school's leadership team in such a bill though.

    I'm still not sure what a business manager of a school does, I know of schools that have one but mine didn't so I don't really understand where they are separate from the headteacher and the office staff.
    I can see what they are trying to do but, like you, don't see how it would practically work. There simply isn't a deep pool of able teachers. 'Super Heads' are a thing, and I wonder if in the first instance it would make sense to increase the number of these working peripatetically to support struggling incumbents.

    Business managers handle budgets, negotiate PSL agreements with recruitment agencies and ensure policy adherence etcetc.

    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Sooo, what exactly is the point of them?

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    Depends on the school, but typically in larger schools they help to spread SLT duties across more people which - theoretically - allows 1) for nobody to be overworked 2) a greater range of expertise to be involved in high level decision making and 3) extra emergency support in the case of an issue with the HT. There are other, smaller, reasons. But in my view these are the main ones. There is no need to require a school to have one though!


    (Original post by BobBobson)
    I'm in a grammar school. And I wasn't tutored. These papers really can't be taught. If you've done IQ tests, they're like that. imho, a lot of tutoring is just a convuluted scam. Tutoring may give you hints, or tips on how to tackle questions, but really the skills can't be taught. I haven't seen a clear study showing how tutoring helps 11+, merely assumptions based on correlations based on how rich the family is and success in 11+. But even in all exams. From University exams, to GCSEs to A Levels, tutoring is available to richer parents. Should we have a lower pass mark for GCSEs for students on FSM? Many 11+ exams also test English and Maths skills, which again can be tutored.
    I also passed easily without tutoring, was a member of the super-poor underclass and have a tested IQ somewhere in the 99th percentile. I say this only to follow with the fact that our personal routes to entry have little effect on the broad truth of the matter. People perform better on IQ tests when they have already taken IQ tests and it has been shown that you can coach people to achieve significantly better scores on such tests provided you can be sure of the methodology (which with the 11+ you can). The rest of your argument requires a response I don't have time to make, but generally I'd have more sympathy with selective schools at some point north of KS3. If you quote me to remind me I will expand later.
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    (Original post by fleky6910)
    Who said we believe in an entire free market?
    A complete free market doesn't work , just like communism doesn't work.
    You believe in equal outcome.
    I on the other hand believe in making opportunity more equal. I do accept outcome will be very different!
    This bill is a step in the right direction.
    I'm going to answer each line of that post individually.

    No one.
    Thanks for telling me the obvious.
    Don't tell me what I believe.
    Good for you.
    Then vote for it.
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    This is one of the biggest noes I have given, the Conservative Party cannot call itself the party of ambition, aspiration, and hard work when it supports a bill that uses discrimination to boost incapable children. And requiring every school that needs improvement to have a new management team is a bad idea because there are very few schools in the country rated excellent with no room for improvement, schools will constantly be undergoing a management change which will make things worse.

    It bills like this making me appreciate the excellent independent education system in Britain when compared to the failing state system. I am not surprised children in independent schools do significantly better in their life than children in state schools when political parties display their incompetence for managing an education system. A quota, and some extra cash is not going to solve the biggest problems in state schools: old buildings, oversized schools, bad teachers, old equipment, poor facilities, a lack of discipline, target-centric approach, impersonal environments, parents not caring, and children not being given ambition.
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    I oppose this bill, mainly due to the second clause.

    (1) Schools within social mobility coldspots: Tameside, Blackpool, Somerset, Doncaster, Barnsley, and Rutland - are entitled to a 15% increase in per pupil funding as long as:
    a. Their per pupil funding is below the average for the local authority.
    This is a step in the right direction.

    (2) Grammar schools within the local authorities listed, must prioritise at least 25% of their places towards students eligible for free school meals.
    I strongly oppose quotas like this, in every sense of the word. Applicants should be judged on the content of their application, with additional consideration for social and economic circumstances. However, the primary emphasis should be the content of the application. There should be a level playing field, and this impacts that, favouring those in poor social situations without much justification, and I will expand upon this.

    Grammar schools aren't the holy grail of schooling. While, on average, they outperform comprehensives (quite obvious considering their purpose), they are not necessarily better funded, do not necessarily have better facilities, or otherwise, than comprehensives. Grammar schools are not a magic wand to achieve equality in this sense.

    I do not think prioritising those who are in a poor economic situation is the way to go. Financial aid to ensure that there is an equal playing field would be far more effective, and far more fair.

    (3) Schools within the local authorities listed that require improvement must have new senior staff appointed by the school governors.
    a. These senior staff must include a new headteacher, a new deputy headteacher, a new assistant headteacher(s), a new pastoral team and a new finance/business manager.
    I just don't see a need to replace all senior staff, it seems a bit overkill. Maybe review each case?
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    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    This is one of the biggest noes I have given, the Conservative Party cannot call itself the party of ambition, aspiration, and hard work when it supports a bill that uses discrimination to boost incapable children. And requiring every school that needs improvement to have a new management team is a bad idea because there are very few schools in the country rated excellent with no room for improvement, schools will constantly be undergoing a management change which will make things worse.
    Yes we can because this bill does support hard work. You still have to do the test before getting into grammar schools, it is just that the people targeted first are students who are struggling financially. Introducing a quota =/= more "incapable kids" in our grammar schools... it just means that while going through applications, schools would be looking for students who did well in the 11+ tests and are struggling financially.

    It's better we do something about it. For example, there's a girls grammar in Wolverhampton (in a deprived area) and it doesn't have a quota - only 5% of their pupils are eligible for FSM compared to Handsworth Grammar School (also situated in a deprived area (also without a quota)) with 27% of their pupils eligible for FSM.

    It bills like this making me appreciate the excellent independent education system in Britain when compared to the failing state system. I am not surprised children in independent schools do significantly better in their life than children in state schools when political parties display their incompetence for managing an education system. A quota, and some extra cash is not going to solve the biggest problems in state schools: old buildings, oversized schools, bad teachers, old equipment, poor facilities, a lack of discipline, target-centric approach, impersonal environments, parents not caring, and children not being given ambition.
    Funny that the first few things you mentioned are all issues that are a result of a lack of funding... so I'm quite confused. Do you want these problems to be addressed? Assuming you answered yes, then extra funding is the answer.

    I do agree with you on some points. Our education system is too soft and does lack discipline. I think in order to make it more strict and toughen it up we should definitely highlight the importance of education to our children, our free education system is not respected enough. I've been an advocate of having longer school days and strict behaviour policy. We can only look at the top-performing countries like South Korea to notice that we are falling behind.
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    (Original post by CoffeeGeek)
    I think in order to make it more strict and toughen it up we should definitely highlight the importance of education to our children, our free education system is not respected enough
    You don't think that the importance of education is stressed enough? Indifference is a large factor, and you can't force someone to care.

    I believe that excessive discipline will distance people further. Being forced into an education system, and then punished for not caring?
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    (Original post by _gcx)
    I strongly oppose quotas like this, in every sense of the word. Applicants should be judged on the content of their application, with additional consideration for social and economic circumstances. However, the primary emphasis should be the content of the application. There should be a level playing field, and this impacts that, favouring those in poor social situations without much justification, and I will expand upon this.
    I agree that they should be judged on the content of their application. The quota doesn't remove that at all. In fact there are many grammars that already prioritise students like that as long as they meet the requirements or pass the 11+ test. Therefore people can't really say that grammar schools don't work for the poorest because they obviously do... and this should help increase the social mobility levels in these areas.

    Grammar schools aren't the holy grail of schooling. While, on average, they outperform comprehensives (quite obvious considering their purpose), they are not necessarily better funded, do not necessarily have better facilities, or otherwise, than comprehensives. Grammar schools are not a magic wand to achieve equality in this sense.
    It's more about social mobility than equality, they are both different. The purpose of this bill is to encourage social mobility and help people move up the ladders and hopefully end up being paid more than their parents.

    Regarding funding, this has been addressed already. If grammar schools have less funding than the local authority average they are entitled to a 15% increase in per pupil funding. So you can't really complain about that because it is something that this bill does address. I am aware of grammar schools that do struggle financially, especially since some are old they have to maintain the buildings so it ends up costing them a lot. I would also say if they are having an issue with funding that they should definitely look into MAT with other schools so that they can receive even more funding and freedoms.

    I do not think prioritising those who are in a poor economic situation is the way to go. Financial aid to ensure that there is an equal playing field would be far more effective, and far more fair.
    This already exists, I believe it's called Pupil Premium (correct me if I'm wrong).

    I just don't see a need to replace all senior staff, it seems a bit overkill. Maybe review each case?
    Fair point raised. Will look into.

    You don't think that the importance of education is stressed enough? Indifference is a large factor, and you can't force someone to care.
    Nope. You should look at the issues some people have raised such as behavioural issues (which is getting worse by the way). I don't think softening up and being less strict will help these problems go away, it will just worsen it. People in South Korea do value their education, both students and parents. All you need to do is look how most parents there invest into their child's education and grow them up stressing the importance of education.

    If they don't care that's fine for them but not the taxpayers.
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    (Original post by CoffeeGeek)
    Yes we can because this bill does support hard work. You still have to do the test before getting into grammar schools, it is just that the people targeted first are students who are struggling financially. Introducing a quota =/= more "incapable kids" in our grammar schools... it just means that while going through applications, schools would be looking for students who did well in the 11+ tests and are struggling financially.

    It's better we do something about it. For example, there's a girls grammar in Wolverhampton (in a deprived area) and it doesn't have a quota - only 5% of their pupils are eligible for FSM compared to Handsworth Grammar School (also situated in a deprived area (also without a quota)) with 27% of their pupils eligible for FSM.

    Funny that the first few things you mentioned are all issues that are a result of a lack of funding... so I'm quite confused. Do you want these problems to be addressed? Assuming you answered yes, then extra funding is the answer.

    I do agree with you on some points. Our education system is too soft and does lack discipline. I think in order to make it more strict and toughen it up we should definitely highlight the importance of education to our children, our free education system is not respected enough. I've been an advocate of having longer school days and strict behaviour policy. We can only look at the top-performing countries like South Korea to notice that we are falling behind.
    There are two ways this quota system would work, the first is where two identical pupils with identical test scores apply for one place, and the poorer pupil is given the place to fulfil the quota. The second way is when there are pupils from different backgrounds applying for a school place, but the poorer pupils are required to achieve lower scores in tests, are looked on more favourably when their candidature is examined, and is granted a place on the unfounded suspicion that if the pupil was from a higher socioeconomic background they would be as good as the pupil applying from the high socioeconomic background: both ways lead to discrimination which does not push hard work. Telling a child who worked hard, put in the effort, and is capable of great things that they cannot attend a grammar schools because a poor child is having the place instead is not something I support. Knowing the entrance exams can be a pass, or fail system, the likely outcome is seeing lots of wealthier pupils denied entry to a grammar school because poorer pupils take their place, this could happen even if wealthier pupils achieved a higher score on the entrance exams to achieve that pass.

    The problems are caused by funding, however, it is not a funding issue that can be solved by an arbitrary 15% more per pupil in funding, the issues need large-scale, national investments in new school buildings with modern facilities. If this bill called for the creation of newer, smaller, and more numerous schools to replace old, huge schools with over 1000 pupils, starting in the areas of greatest need, I would support the bill. To improve discipline in schools there should be zero-tolerance for naughty children, the reintroduction of borstals for disruptive pupils, and the inability for parents to challenge school rules.
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    (Original post by frankielogue)
    aye
    yay. Finally a socialist agrees with one of our bills!
    Beware of the whip from DMcGovern
 
 
 
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