Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    him marrying a 9 year old was not morally bad given his societal and cultural context,
    Regarding Banu Qurayza, I do not see an error in his judgement regarding them given the social and historical context
    So if a person was to marry a nine year old girl , and murder thousands of innocent people TODAY, would it be right or wrong ?


    The Prophet (SAW) doesn't suddenly stop being the prophet of God just because you understand a couple of things differently due to your subjective analysis - it is a weak argument to rule out Islam in such a way when the Quran is still perfect and nigh impossible to have been created by a desert dwelling Arab who could neither read nor write.
    Doesnt Allah command us to use our "weak subjective stupid" minds to ponder his existence in the Quran ?
    Surah Rahman, Surah Anam, Surah Na'ba etc....

    Essentially it appears it really is down to emotional arguments dressed up as reasoned arguments that you left Islam.
    I think Im just being
    1) Honest
    2) Open minded

    You should try it. It's very refreshing.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by NothingButWaleed)
    Your decision but just ask yourself one thing...
    What if..and I'm saying just imagine..if there is actually a God, and there is a Judgement and God asks you why you didn't follow the teaching of Islam, what would you respond with..I'm not trying to criticise your decision I'm just asking you. Personally, I'm a Muslims and I'm proud of who I am
    I'd have to admit being wrong. But I would like to ask him:

    "What was the point ?"

    (Original post by Al-Albani)
    Yes.
    Does he not sound like the best man to step on the face of the Earth to you?
    Why not?
    What makes your morals more correct then his?
    I believe killing people who commit homosexual acts is right. Prove to me that its not.
    I can never "prove" what is moral and immoral because it is subjective. But let me ask you a simple question.

    Why is a gay person thrown off a building then stonned to death ? What harm has he cause ? Who has he killed ? What did he do to deserve this ?
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ozilll)
    but don't they deserve it? They committed a sin (when it is explicitly said not to) and weren't sorry for it (given the opportunity to repent where Allah will forgive no matter what the sin was).
    what's the point of trumpeting, in the Quran "let there be no compulsion in matters of religion" and then send disbelievers to eternal hellfire, just for the "horrible crime" of disbelieving ?

    Allah says : yes, you're free to refuse worshiping me, no compulsion at all, let one hundred flowers flourish, long live liberty and bla bla bla

    however, there's a small detail : if you don't worship me, it's eternal torture and hellfire for you... but, of course, you're perfectly free...

    how is it possible to ignore the ridiculous character of similar statements ?

    best
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by javedkid123)
    How is denying God the worst possible sin in the world ? Is he really that childish to punish them the most ? But lets imagine that it (somehow) was the case. Isn’t God the "most" merciful. Couldn’t he forgive a person for such a minor mistake? He can forgive killers, murders, rapists etc. …. so surely, he can forgive a good person who denied his existence? Can't you see the clear paradox?
    Of course, Allah will forgive those who sin whatever it was (including polytheism).

    But polytheism is the worst possible sin in Islam, it goes against the Islamic fundamentals.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ozilll)
    But polytheism is the worst possible sin in Islam, it goes against the Islamic fundamentals.
    Allah is the most powerful thing in the universe. Why the hell would he get so mad about someone praying to a rock?

    According to Allah, a rapist who kills his own mother is better then a mushirk ?
    Don't you think Allah is being a bit childish ?
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Dionysus1900)
    The idea of society has changed over the years, what is the norm now wasn't centuries ago and vice versa.

    Can you not see the hypocrisy of this line of reasoning? You believe in an objective morality as set down by the Qu'ran, such us not believing in more than one god, the evil of homosexuality, etc., but expect us not to judge Muhammad on the same criteria of our modern standard and instead employ subjectivity? Fine. Will Islam be subjective in its comprehension of modernity, and tolerate and accept homosexuals, pagans, atheists? If not, and you expect us to tolerate Muhammad's pedophilia, then you are a hypocrite.

    We are not talking about sexual intercourse? He had sex with her when she was 9 years old, and you profess him to be the greatest human being.
    I never said do not judge Prophet Muhammad (SAW) however judge when the criteria is correct. He is not a paedophile nor do you have any evidence that they had sexual intercourse at age 9, their marriage was complete when Aisha (ra) was aged 9. Nonetheless, I would just like to emphasise that society during those times it wasn't seen as bad as it is now but youre free to have your opinion.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by javedkid123)
    I'd have to admit being wrong. But I would like to ask him:

    "What was the point ?"



    I can never "prove" what is moral and immoral because it is subjective. But let me ask you a simple question.

    Why is a gay person thrown off a building then stonned to death ? What harm has he cause ? Who has he killed ? What did he do to deserve this ?
    I don't know why he deserves it. But Allah does. So I accept it because Allah knows best and my belief in Allah is certain.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by javedkid123)
    Allah is the most powerful thing in the universe. Why the hell would he get so mad about someone praying to a rock?

    According to Allah, a rapist who kills his own mother is better then a mushirk ?
    Don't you think Allah is being a bit childish ?

    Not really. Because if you do not think that the only God is Allah then you do not believe in Islam and therefore do not believe in Allah's rules & guide.

    There is a process to this, choose to not believe in the fundamentals then there is no point in believing anything which are based on these fundamentals.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Al-Albani)
    I don't know why he deserves it. But Allah does. So I accept it because Allah knows best and my belief in Allah is certain.
    Thats one way you can go about it.

    But I prefer to be open minded.

    (Original post by ozilll)
    Not really.
    Yes it is really. Shirk is the only sin Allah cant forgive.

    Anyways, cant you see the major paradox we have with Allah ?
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    Good decision.

    I fully believe in religion if it has peaceful meaning such as going to a better place when you die etc. however when a religion preaches hate, it's a no from me. I am well aware there are good and bad people of all religions, but more seem to be islamic. I am in no way racist it's a plain fact.

    Feel free to give me hate I want to hear what others think
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Al-Albani)
    Again, prove to me that killing homosexuals is wrong. Prove to me that it is wrong to burn disbelievers in hellfire. Akhi, the way islam works is that you develop iman first until you believe with absoulute certainty. After this you will see fatwas about killing homosexuals etc. and accept them without hesitation. What is right and wrong doesn't come from yourself. How can you know burning disbelievers in hell is wrong? Allah choses what is right and wrong and you follow, that is how the deen works. You dont mix your own morals with what Allah has commanded because there is no way of knowing whether your morals are right. On the other hand, if you truly believe in Allah then you know without doubt that what he has commanded is right

    It's obvious why it is wrong. It's called basic human empathy and compassion.If you don't agree then you should just go join Isis.Morality does not come from God it's an innate quality in humans.Thats why religious people cherry pick verses in their holy books.In the Quran it clearly says that disbelievers are to be killed.Yet most western Muslims don't do that because it conflicts with their sense of morals.If morals actually came from God they would obey.
    Offline

    11
    ReputationRep:
    That Imam was probably one narrow minded person- many non muslims also have that belief. It certainly does not define islam. I genuinely believe you're just in need of some guidance, and leaving Islam won't benefit you.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by javedkid123)
    Tried going anonymous but F it.

    AMA I guess ?
    Well it's your choice however Islam doesn't say kill gay's anyways...
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    WoE is this trending again?
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by javedkid123)
    One may say that atheism is also Delusional. The prob of us being created by randomness is soo low you could consider it delusional.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle

    Food for thought.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    Thanks. I've been reading alot about the Kalam cosmological argument recently.

    (Original post by Psychedeliyaa)
    WoE is this trending again?
    Whats wrong with it ?

    (Original post by khan_star)
    Well it's your choice however Islam doesn't say kill gay's anyways...
    Yes it does.

    (Original post by Rxmxi)
    That Imam was probably one narrow minded person- many non muslims also have that belief. It certainly does not define islam. I genuinely believe you're just in need of some guidance, and leaving Islam won't benefit you.
    Aren't muslims meant to be narrow minded ?
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by javedkid123)
    Thats one way you can go about it.

    But I prefer to be open minded.



    Yes it is really. Shirk is the only sin Allah cant forgive.

    Anyways, cant you see the major paradox we have with Allah ?
    Nope, Allah may forgive shirk if you repent whilst you are alive. Shirk is the only sin which Allah swt will not forgive if you were to die believing in shirk.

    And tbh it doesn't suggest Allah is childish. Shirk goes agianst the shadaha, so surely it has a major impact to your beliefs and should be dealt with in the most harshest of manners?
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by javedkid123)
    So if a person was to marry a nine year old girl , and murder thousands of innocent people TODAY, would it be right or wrong ?

    Doesnt Allah command us to use our "weak subjective stupid" minds to ponder his existence in the Quran ?
    Surah Rahman, Surah Anam, Surah Na'ba etc....

    I think Im just being
    1) Honest
    2) Open minded

    You should try it. It's very refreshing.
    Marrying a girl who has reached puberty would be acceptable today dependent upon the societal and cultural context that they lived in - indeed the age of consent and the age of marriage vary from country to country today, and this is dependent upon what is appropriate for them, and this is a fact that Western/liberal critics of Islam often overlook because their view is too skewed towards projecting their subjective truths as absolute truths onto every other culture and society from around the world. For example, the expectations of someone reaching puberty in a tribe in Africa or South America are different to the expectations of someone in the West, and their societal conditions and living conditions differ - the person could be effectively more mature than the person from the West as they take on the responsibilities of an adult whereas the Westerner is still mentally a child relative to their societal context; ultimately, the point is that as much as people in the West like to paint it this way, it is not a black and white issue.

    Murdering thousands of innocent people is indeed wrong; the problem is your assumption that they are completely innocent.

    Further reading on this topic:
    http://islamqa.org/hanafi/seekersguidance-hanafi/31644
    https://islamqa.info/en/201120

    One golden quote from the first link which is general and can be applied to both topics:
    "Others might never agree with us on some things, but we don’t seek to validate our faith through their value systems and opinions."

    We can use logic and rational thought to deduce the existence of a creator, but we cannot do the same to achieve absolute morals, so you are comparing apples and oranges here.

    I am honest and open minded - it's why I reverted to Islam two years ago, and why my faith hasn't been shaken too this day, as I have already heard of the majority of arguments that non-Muslims have come up with, and frankly most of them are not satisfactory to refute Islam as the religion of God.

    Again, I would ask you to not be over reliant on projecting your own morals which have been shaped by the society around you and not present emotional arguments, and instead look into these topics with an 'open mind' as you had intended.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    Marrying a girl who has reached puberty would be acceptable today dependent upon the societal and cultural context that they lived in - indeed the age of consent and the age of marriage vary from country to country today, and this is dependent upon what is appropriate for them, and this is a fact that Western/liberal critics of Islam often overlook because their view is too skewed towards projecting their subjective truths as absolute truths onto every other culture and society from around the world. For example, the expectations of someone reaching puberty in a tribe in Africa or South America are different to the expectations of someone in the West, and their societal conditions and living conditions differ - the person could be effectively more mature than the person from the West as they take on the responsibilities of an adult whereas the Westerner is still mentally a child relative to their societal context; ultimately, the point is that as much as people in the West like to paint it this way, it is not a black and white issue.

    Murdering thousands of innocent people is indeed wrong; the problem is your assumption that they are completely innocent.

    Further reading on this topic:
    http://islamqa.org/hanafi/seekersguidance-hanafi/31644
    https://islamqa.info/en/201120

    One golden quote from the first link which is general and can be applied to both topics:
    "Others might never agree with us on some things, but we don’t seek to validate our faith through their value systems and opinions."

    We can use logic and rational thought to deduce the existence of a creator, but we cannot do the same to achieve absolute morals, so you are comparing apples and oranges here.

    I am honest and open minded - it's why I reverted to Islam two years ago, and why my faith hasn't been shaken too this day, as I have already heard of the majority of arguments that non-Muslims have come up with, and frankly most of them are not satisfactory to refute Islam as the religion of God.

    Again, I would ask you to not be over reliant on projecting your own morals which have been shaped by the society around you and not present emotional arguments, and instead look into these topics with an 'open mind' as you had intended.
    This.
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    ok? lol
 
 
 
Reply
Submit reply
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

Updated: July 11, 2017
Poll
Do you agree with the PM's proposal to cut tuition fees for some courses?
Useful resources

Groups associated with this forum:

View associated groups

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reply
Hide
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.