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    (Original post by ozilll)
    Reading this thread, I've come to the understanding that many critique Islam because us Muslims are willing to devout our lifes to the rulings & guidelines that Allah swt revealed to us.

    But surely this idea of 'dictatorship' is right and that following a being who is greater than me in all aspects is right. At the end of the day we are all humans who aren't very clever, led by emotion and tend to make so many mistakes. So why should I allow myself to follow my own rulings or follow rulings created by someone else when I know Allah swt, who is all knowing, has given me rules and has provided me with the Sunnah to live a successful life.
    *inserts 2 hands in the air emoji* in agreement.

    At the end of the day all we can do is 'promote' the truth.

    Funny how people will attack our beliefs, and then label us 'brainwashed' when we tell them how Islam really is. Yawn.
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    Marrying a girl who has reached puberty would be acceptable today dependent upon the societal and cultural context that they lived in - indeed the age of consent and the age of marriage vary from country to country today, and this is dependent upon what is appropriate for them, and this is a fact that Western/liberal critics of Islam often overlook because their view is too skewed towards projecting their subjective truths as absolute truths onto every other culture and society from around the world.
    You seem to be ignoring the fact that ultra orthodox Muslims (such as those who author one of your preferred scholarly sources, IslamQA) don't even hold puberty as being a condition for marriage (or even the girl's consent):


    "Islam does not give a specific age for marriage, either for the husband or for the wife. Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning):
    “And for such of your women as despair of menstruation, if ye doubt, their period (of waiting) shall be three months, along with those who have it not”
    [al-Talaaq 65:4].

    Al-Sa‘di (may Allah have mercy on him) said: “along with those who have it [menses] not” means minors, those who have not yet started to menstruate. Adult women who have never menstruated at all are like those who “despair of menstruation” (i.e., have passed menopause); their ‘iddah is three months. End quote.
    Tafseer al-Sa‘di, p. 870

    The Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) married ‘Aa’ishah (may Allah be pleased with her) when she was six years old and the marriage was consummated when she was nine years old. Narrated by al-Bukhaari (4840) and Muslim (1422).

    Ibn Qudaamah (may Allah have mercy on him) said in al-Sharh al-Kabeer, 7/386:

    With regard to females, the father may give his minor, virgin daughter who has not yet reached the age of nine in marriage, and there is no difference of opinion concerning that, if he gives her in marriage to someone who is compatible. Ibn al-Mundhir said: All of those scholars from whom we acquired knowledge unanimously agreed that it is permissible for a father to give his minor daughter in marriage if he arranges her to someone who is compatible, and it is permissible for him to do that even if she is reluctant. End quote."

    https://islamqa.info/en/146882
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    (Original post by RZA17)
    But you are criticising the religion to which muslims belong to, no? Therefore, you are criticising what muslims (including myself) stand for. Obviously I'm going to react; the same way anyone else would if something they believe in is being portrayed incorrectly. Personally, I think you and many others responding to this thread have been informed about Islam falsely, most likely through the media. So, again, as a muslim myself, I feel I possess the right to criticise people's assumptions.

    Ah, there it is. Almost cliché this ideology that seems to correlate with Islam (in my opinion, anyways). Islam does NOT promote hate towards minorities, non-believers and women. But I assume you have enough statistics and news stories to prove me wrong. Well, as a muslim woman myself, who knows many other females, non-believers and 'minorities' (although I'm not sure what you classify as such) - not once have I felt hatred of any kind, towards the latter. Nor have I experienced any hatred towards me. I have however, heard racist remarks thrown at muslim friends and family, witnessed hate crime towards a fellow muslim and seen hatred towards muslims almost everyday in the news. But that's irrelevant isn't it? Because we are the one's supposedly 'promoting' hatred.

    I wasn't at all being bitter. I wouldn't be so quick to judge if I were you (& that's in relation to everything). I have the right to an opinion, the same way the OP does - thus, I shall state it.
    I will take statistical data and literary evidence of the doctrine and its history itself to form an opinion. I have debated with many Muslims in the past, also, and so I know of many of the talking points used.

    If you have faced discrimination for being Muslim, that is unequivocally wrong and has no place in our society, but the way you conflate the doctrine of Islam and Muslims distorts the picture. We are criticising the religion, not the people who follow it. Perhaps guilty by association, but the vast majority of Muslims don't do what their book tells them to do, and for that I'm grateful, just like the vast majority of Jews and Christians have stopped adhering to their religion.

    This is a debate on Islam, not on people.
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    (Original post by javedkid123)
    How do I get this thread locked? It's getting a bit out of hand now.
    Post some nude pics [NOT of yourself]
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    x
    Do you think the USA should close Guantanamo Bay? (just curious)
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    (Original post by Cherub012)
    Do you think the USA should close Guantanamo Bay? (just curious)
    What the? Talk about off topic. I know nothing of that issue..
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    What the? Talk about off topic. I know nothing of that issue..
    Oh erm... Guantanimo Bay, contains terrorists, most of them are "Muslim", Muslims follow Islam, OP left Islam...

    OK so were back on air! :ahee:

    Basically, Guantanimo Bay torture their prisoners (terrorists). I'm guessing (if you assume what I'm saying is correct), you believe it should be shut down?
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    (Original post by Cherub012)
    Post some nude pics [NOT of yourself]
    Your right. I don't wanna cause any nazar.
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    (Original post by javedkid123)
    Your right. I don't wanna cause any nazar.
    Infection?
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    So you're in favour of torture (and there is no good reason for it) and you wonder why people find this vile? Tragic to see how Islam has caused you to have a perverted, psychopathic sense of morality..



    People can choose to be offended at anything, that's not my problem. And it's a bit rich to talk about offence when you're trying to justify the torture of other human beings :lol:
    I never said torture alone nor torture with every sin out there is applicable. Like I've said before, shirk (the act of polytheism) is the biggest sin in Islam and if one were to choose to do such a thing till the day they die (knowing how badly its portrayed in Islam), then it's up to them. But they must face the consequences.

    And on the note of offence of course I am not offended by your words, they have no meaning to me emotionally. But for the next person you have a debate with, your words may, so please respect those who do not share common beliefs.
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    (Original post by ozilll)
    Torture with reason.... (Are you sure you have a problem with Islam or just with torturing in general?)

    Of course it is not okay for Muslims to react violent, I've always been pro respect in an argument. However, calling someone's beliefs vile can come across offensive. I'm not insecure or I wouldn't be here arguing with you. I'm just saying when you disagree with something no need to mock their beliefs, say I disagree and give a point

    So it's fine to torture someone but it's not ok to hurt your feelings? Oh the irony. You are hurting my brain with your stupidity. Respect is earned not given. Why don't you give us one good reason to respect Islam?
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    (Original post by RZA17)
    I didn't presume it was a generalisation, it WAS a generalisation. You essentially stated that you hope Islam doesn't teach children to be homophobic (something that is not stated in the Quran or any relevant religious publications), yet you have been surprised every time - as if to say, this is the kind of substance taught in Islam, therefore you have generalised the religion based on ONE account.

    I agree that many people are oppressed under ruling of those who claim to be 'muslims', but they are not muslims. Neither are extremists. They merely just use Islam as a facade to dilute their madness. Whether you're a muslim or not; you think terrorist, you think muslim (& there are enough anti-Islamists, trump supporters and statistics to prove this is beyond a generalisation). Islam has become the default 'religion' for sick, psychopaths to get away with whatever sick, psychopathic behaviour pleases them.

    I don't need to look at predominantly muslim countries to identify barbaric behaviour. The same behaviour was demonstrated by the KKK way back when, and it is present today in places like Kenya, India, North Korea...

    And may I ask have you read the complete Quran? In it's original arabic form or based your judgement on a translation off Google?
    What I said was referring to my own anecdotal experiences and I am still surprised, as I am now, about your views which undoubtedly have been directly influenced by the Quran. It is forbidden in the Quran to be homosexual under several verses, and many more verses in the Quran. Search it up and you will find a plethora of websites confirming this, even Wikipedia, they also reference the verse so you can go to your Arabic version of the Quran and find the same information.

    You then proceed to make a No true Scotsman fallacy, search it up and you will see that the argument is not logically consistent, as you aren't the arbiter of what is a real Muslim and what isn't a real Muslim. I try and separate the ideology from the followers unless we are talking directly about the social issues in the world. Although, playing into your hand here I will have to say that the more extreme Muslims in the middle-east are much more accurately following the Quran than those who live in democratic societies and may even have friends who aren't believers, gay, atheists etc.

    Also, your translation argument is laughable. Couple things, the original form of Arabic is wildly different from today's Arabic, meaning I could make the exact same argument to you with the exact same validity. Also why do you think many Islamic scholars concur that homosexuality is a sin in Islam along with many Ex-Muslims who left Islam based on this along with some other information about the barbarism in the religion.
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    (Original post by ozilll)
    I never said torture alone nor torture with every sin out there is applicable. Like I've said before, shirk (the act of polytheism) is the biggest sin in Islam and if one were to choose to do such a thing till the day they die (knowing how badly its portrayed in Islam), then it's up to them. But they must face the consequences.
    Good God, Islam has made you insane. How can you possibly believe it's justified to torture someone for something like believing in multiple gods? Is this supposed to be the perfect morality of Islam? If so then count me out.

    And on the note of offence of course I am not offended by your words, they have no meaning to me emotionally. But for the next person you have a debate with, your words may, so please respect those who do not share common beliefs.
    No, I have no obligation to respect beliefs, they can be mocked to hell and back, especially ones as ridiculous and dangerous as yours.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Good God, Islam has made you insane. How can you possibly believe it's justified to torture someone for something like believing in multiple gods? Is this supposed to be the perfect morality of Islam? If so then count me out.



    No, I have no obligation to respect beliefs, they can be mocked to hell and back, especially ones as ridiculous and dangerous as yours.
    Thought you were an atheist? :eyeball: Looks like you need him, even in your writing.


    (Original post by Ascend)
    x
    Explains the age of consent in Saudi, Yemen... smh.
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    (Original post by javedkid123)
    Tried going anonymous but F it.

    AMA I guess ?
    BS

    Posted from TSR Mobile
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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    Never heard of an asian/pakistani islam.
    i think he means Sufism/barelvi Islam
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    (Original post by ozilll)
    Surely a degree of common respect exists, a bare minimum which is honoured by everyone. Then anything extra 'is earned'? I want you to respect Islam at this minimum point like I would want you to respect any other belief. Post that, it's up to you to

    it is fine to torture someone for A VERY SPECIFIC REASON.

    No.A person deserves a minimum of respect.A belief is just an idea and as such does not inherently deserve respect.I have no respect at all for the belief system of Nazism for example,in the same way I do not respect Islam.Its not ok to torture people.I cannot believe I have to actually say that.Your morality is screwed up. It's even less ok to torture them for eternity.Any diety who thinks it's ok is evil.What specific reason would that be?
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    (Original post by Robby2312)
    No.A person deserves a minimum of respect.A belief is just an idea and as such does not inherently deserve respect.I have no respect at all for the belief system of Nazism for example,in the same way I do not respect Islam.Its not ok to torture people.I cannot believe I have to actually say that.Your morality is screwed up. It's even less ok to torture them for eternity.Any diety who thinks it's ok is evil.What specific reason would that be?

    Fine. If your point is on the basis that torture is wrong then surely you disagree with everything the justice system is based upon? Any form of punishment can be classed as torture.....

    What would be your next best alternative to torture?

    By the way, in Islam, individuals aren't tortured for no reason - there is always a particular reason and in my replies in this thread it is due to shirk.
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    (Original post by ozilll)
    And people get confused to why so many muslims become violent and what not
    ozilll, Allah insults us in the Quran, by calling us disbelievers the "vilest of creatures"

    this, in itself, is a vile belief

    best
 
 
 
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