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    (Original post by Elmi)
    So your an ignorant apostate. If you actually took your time and read about the rulings on homosexuality in Islam you wouldn't be going around spreading lies and false information about Islam. In Islam, it is the manifestation of performing the act of homosexuality that is a sin rather than the individual having the feel of same-sex desires. Different people have different tendencies within them, and God knows us better than anyone else, so just like the act of fornication and adultery, the act of homosexuality is haram.
    Lmao you really don't have to call someone who decides to leave your religion ignorant you know. It was OP's choice and why does it bother you? Insulting apostates just makes you look insecure about your faith. OP didn't agree with the bad points of Islam. What's wrong with that? Or are you going to tell me Islam is all cotton candy and flowers?

    And why the hell is it any God's business what a gay person decides to do with their sex life? None of his business and it's no Muslim's business either.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    We're not talking about mental torture, stop being disingenuous. We were talking about the specifics of hell, which is unbearable physical torture that is inflicted for no purpose other than revenge and bloodlust, as already explained. You are unable to provide a logical, justifiable reason for hellish punishment.

    No, once again, jail is for keeping someone dangerous out of society and for deterring them from committing the crime again. Hell cannot serve either of these purposes.

    You're now just trying to enlarge the definition of "torture" to basically include any punishment possible because you know that your justification of the classical torture is vile and you're trying to distract us from it.
    You do not understand either. People aren't put into hell for revenge or bloodlust - they are put into hell for going against the rules of our religion. I wasn't trying to distract you instead I was letting you understand what you was talking about through your use of 'torture'.

    Hell is the worst possible place to be yes. But as Allah is the most-forgiving, if you're in hell then you truly must deserve it.

    I personally believe hell exists for two reasons. Mainly to punish those who go against the clear rules & guidelines Allah has revealed to us. Like any criminal in the UK. Secondly, to an extent, it acts as an incentive. Allah wants what is best for us and if that means setting out a degree of fear to put us on the good path then why not?
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    (Original post by ozilll)
    You do not understand either.
    Nonsense, it's you who does't understand and you who cannot justify it.

    People aren't put into hell for revenge or bloodlust - they are put into hell for going against the rules of our religion. I wasn't trying to distract you instead I was letting you understand what you was talking about through your use of 'torture'.
    Yes, the revenge and bloodlust is because they went against the religion, so the punishment is for revenge and for no other purpose!

    Hell is the worst possible place to be yes. But as Allah is the most-forgiving, if you're in hell then you truly must deserve it.
    No, no one deserves hell because it is inherently unjust and disproportionate. No finite crime can merit an eternal punishment and you still haven't addressed this.

    I personally believe hell exists for two reasons. Mainly to punish those who go against the clear rules & guidelines Allah has revealed to us. Like any criminal in the UK. Secondly, to an extent, it acts as an incentive. Allah wants what is best for us and if that means setting out a degree of fear to put us on the good path then why not?
    So your first reason is for bloodlust and revenge.

    As mentioned, criminals are not sent to prison for bloodlust and revenge, they are kept out of society.

    Your next point makes no sense. How can being in hell act as an incentive? Once you're in hell you're in hell, it cannot act as an incentive for anything.
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    (Original post by ozilll)
    You do not understand either. People aren't put into hell for revenge or bloodlust - they are put into hell for going against the rules of our religion. I wasn't trying to distract you instead I was letting you understand what you was talking about through your use of 'torture'.

    Hell is the worst possible place to be yes. But as Allah is the most-forgiving, if you're in hell then you truly must deserve it.

    I personally believe hell exists for two reasons. Mainly to punish those who go against the clear rules & guidelines Allah has revealed to us. Like any criminal in the UK. Secondly, to an extent, it acts as an incentive. Allah wants what is best for us and if that means setting out a degree of fear to put us on the good path then why not?
    Do you seriously not see the contradiction here? Allah is the most forgiving.So forgiving in fact that he will torture unbelievers for all eternity? That is direct contradiction right there.Its literally the very opposite of forgiving.And you are being ridiculous,there is a world of difference between sticking a knife in someone and sending them to prison.
    Hell quite obviously does not exist.That is why it has to be made so horrifying.If it actually existed it would not need to be so bad.But since it doesn't exist it has to be made much more horrifying to stop people questioning it.
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    lol what do you want a cookie
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    I'm guessing you're now an Atheist. I.e. someone who has no idea what created the Universe and will never do haha
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    (Original post by Dionysus1900)
    And I'm guessing you do?
    Of course he doesn't, he thinks some 1400 year old book is the truth despite there being no evidence for it :lol:
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    (Original post by Robby2312)
    Do you seriously not see the contradiction here? Allah is the most forgiving.So forgiving in fact that he will torture unbelievers for all eternity? That is direct contradiction right there.Its literally the very opposite of forgiving.And you are being ridiculous,there is a world of difference between sticking a knife in someone and sending them to prison.
    Hell quite obviously does not exist.That is why it has to be made so horrifying.If it actually existed it would not need to be so bad.But since it doesn't exist it has to be made much more horrifying to stop people questioning it.
    I don't understand the contradiction. Allah will forgive those who repent FACT. If you commit your crime and aren't regretful then surely it means you deserve whatever punishment you get (most sins aren't even punished to eternity in hell, it is rather a particular period). Likewise, in court if you were to plead guilty you are more likely to be given special 'rewards' eg shorter jail-time as it suggests you are regretful of your actions.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Nonsense, it's you who does't understand and you who cannot justify it.



    Yes, the revenge and bloodlust is because they went against the religion, so the punishment is for revenge and for no other purpose!



    No, no one deserves hell because it is inherently unjust and disproportionate. No finite crime can merit an eternal punishment and you still haven't addressed this.



    So your first reason is for bloodlust and revenge.

    As mentioned, criminals are not sent to prison for bloodlust and revenge, they are kept out of society.

    Your next point makes no sense. How can being in hell act as an incentive? Once you're in hell you're in hell, it cannot act as an incentive for anything.
    The principle of punishment is not a form of revenge it is rather an effective way to teach someone a lesson.

    You cannot be the judge of who deserves to go to hell or who doesn't nor do I. Only Allah does.

    People are sent to hell to keep them away from heaven and ruin such a beautiful place.

    Hell does act as an incentive. Right now, I have the opportunity to either follow the rules & guidelines Allah swt has provided or I can go against them. I know that by going against them I will end up in hell, so I am therefore incentivised to follow Allah's rules & guidelines. And before anyone starts to say this is unhealthy and whatnot, as I have mentioned earlier, I choose to follow Allah's rules and guidelines because I do not want to displease my creator - this incentive factor is much smaller in porportion to that.
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    (Original post by ozilll)
    The principle of punishment is not a form of revenge it is rather an effective way to teach someone a lesson.
    This has changed nothing I said. It's for revenge, there is no lesson that can be learned from hell, it does not rehabilitate and doesn't allow for correction. It is bloodlust, pure and simple, invented by simple desert dwellers who thought that was something scary.

    You cannot be the judge of who deserves to go to hell or who doesn't nor do I. Only Allah does.
    No one can be the judge of a place that doesn't exist. What we can do is criticise, dissect and mock the imaginary concept, exposing its blatant flaws and inconsistencies.

    People are sent to hell to keep them away from heaven and ruin such a beautiful place.
    Nice try, but no. If God doesn't want them to go to heaven then there's no way they could enter, whether they're in hell or not. God could just as easily eradicate those souls from existence if he doesn't want to be anywhere near them and has no need to subject them to gruesome torture. Which just confirms that they're in hell for reasons of bloodlust.

    Hell does act as an incentive. Right now, I have the opportunity to either follow the rules & guidelines Allah swt has provided or I can go against them. I know that by going against them I will end up in hell, so I am therefore incentivised to follow Allah's rules & guidelines. And before anyone starts to say this is unhealthy and whatnot, as I have mentioned earlier, I choose to follow Allah's rules and guidelines because I do not want to displease my creator - this incentive factor is much smaller in porportion to that.
    Yes, right NOW. But you're not in hell right now. We are talking about people actually in hell, where it clearly cannot act as an incentive.

    Also pretty strange that you need the threat of hell to behave. How comes atheists can behave even though they don't believe in God?
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    This has changed nothing I said. It's for revenge, there is no lesson that can be learned from hell, it does not rehabilitate and doesn't allow for correction. It is bloodlust, pure and simple, invented by simple desert dwellers who thought that was something scary.



    No one can be the judge of a place that doesn't exist. What we can do is criticise, dissect and mock the imaginary concept, exposing its blatant flaws and inconsistencies.



    Nice try, but no. If God doesn't want them to go to heaven then there's no way they could enter, whether they're in hell or not. God could just as easily eradicate those souls from existence if he doesn't want to be anywhere near them and has no need to subject them to gruesome torture. Which just confirms that they're in hell for reasons of bloodlust.



    Yes, right NOW. But you're not in hell right now. We are talking about people actually in hell, where it clearly cannot act as an incentive.

    Also pretty strange that you need the threat of hell to behave. How comes atheists can behave even though they don't believe in God?

    I know its nothing changed because its something I truly believe. Of course you learn a lesson from hell. Like most criminals, they learn why and how their actions must of been wrong when stuck in jail for x years. Those who realise why their actions are bad, tend to go from hell to heaven (like I said previously, not every sinner will go to hell for eternity - except those who believe in shirk). Those who go to hell and do not feel remorse/guilt or have regret over their actions then they deserve to be in hell. Like if I were to murder a school full of children and have no remorse over it, you'd say I deserve to be in jail for eternity....

    Yes Allah could destroy the souls of sinners anytime, even now! But the amount of mercy Allah swt carries is so much that Allah is willing to let those who go into hell to come out if they realise their actions and plead remorse. Also, Allah has given us free will for a reason. Allah wants Allah's slaves to realise themselves what they are doing and why it is wrong. Surely that isn't bloodlust and instead demonstrates how much Allah cares & loves for Allah's creations?

    And looool I knew you'd use that incentive line even after I explicitly said that isn't the main reason why I choose to follow Islam. I behave to please my creator. It just demonstrates how weak your argument is right now.
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    (Original post by ozilll)
    I know its nothing changed because its something I truly believe. Of course you learn a lesson from hell. Like most criminals, they learn why and how their actions must of been wrong when stuck in jail for x years. Those who realise why their actions are bad, tend to go from hell to heaven (like I said previously, not every sinner will go to hell for eternity - except those who believe in shirk). Those who go to hell and do not feel remorse/guilt or have regret over their actions then they deserve to be in hell. Like if I were to murder a school full of children and have no remorse over it, you'd say I deserve to be in jail for eternity....

    Yes Allah could destroy the souls of sinners anytime, even now! But the amount of mercy Allah swt carries is so much that Allah is willing to let those who go into hell to come out if they realise their actions and plead remorse. Also, Allah has given us free will for a reason. Allah wants Allah's slaves to realise themselves what they are doing and why it is wrong. Surely that isn't bloodlust and instead demonstrates how much Allah cares & loves for Allah's creations?

    And looool I knew you'd use that incentive line even after I explicitly said that isn't the main reason why I choose to follow Islam. I behave to please my creator. It just demonstrates how weak your argument is right now.
    The difference between hell and jail is that Allah sends people to hell for reasons that are completely allowed under our laws, such as eating bacon, listening to music, having sex outside marriage, masturbating, and obviously not believing in him.

    We're not just speaking of murder here.
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    (Original post by Josb)
    The difference between hell and jail is that Allah sends people to hell for reasons that are completely allowed under our laws, such as eating bacon, listening to music, having sex outside marriage, masturbating, and obviously not believing in him.

    We're not just speaking of murder here.
    Yes I know that. But I am speaking in terms of principle.
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    Good. :congrats:
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    (Original post by ozilll)
    I know its nothing changed because its something I truly believe.
    I'm just clarifying that the reasons for hell you're giving are for bloodthirsty revenge and not at all logical or justifiable.

    Of course you learn a lesson from hell. Like most criminals, they learn why and how their actions must of been wrong when stuck in jail for x years.
    Hell is supposed to be the most brutal, painful and unbearable experience possible, I doubt someone is going to have the energy or will to focus on what they did wrong, they'd be consumed by anguish. And you don't need to be tortured to know you did something wrong, you can simply be told, further exposing hell's absurdity.

    Those who realise why their actions are bad, tend to go from hell to heaven (like I said previously, not every sinner will go to hell for eternity - except those who believe in shirk). Those who go to hell and do not feel remorse/guilt or have regret over their actions then they deserve to be in hell. Like if I were to murder a school full of children and have no remorse over it, you'd say I deserve to be in jail for eternity....
    Non-Muslims are destined to be in hell forever, as espoused by the Quran. And even one second in hell is unjust and disproportionate to any punishment that can be committed on Earth.

    No, a murderer goes to jail to keep them out of society, not for some random, illogical reason.

    Yes Allah could destroy the souls of sinners anytime, even now! But the amount of mercy Allah swt carries is so much that Allah is willing to let those who go into hell to come out if they realise their actions and plead remorse. Also, Allah has given us free will for a reason. Allah wants Allah's slaves to realise themselves what they are doing and why it is wrong. Surely that isn't bloodlust and instead demonstrates how much Allah cares & loves for Allah's creations?
    As mentioned, non-Muslims never leave hell, whether they feel remorse or not. And hell being temporary for some people does not justify it.

    Seriously? You're trying to tell me that torturing someone in the most brutal and horrific ways is Allah showing care and love?! Are you trolling?

    And looool I knew you'd use that incentive line even after I explicitly said that isn't the main reason why I choose to follow Islam. I behave to please my creator. It just demonstrates how weak your argument is right now.
    Nonsense, your argument is as weak as your theology. You erroneously claimed being in hell acts as an incentive, when that claim doesn't even make sense. Moreover, you have totally failed to justify hell's existence and cannot resolve its blatant inconsistencies and contradictions.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    I'm just clarifying that the reasons for hell you're giving are for bloodthirsty revenge and not at all logical or justifiable.



    Hell is supposed to be the most brutal, painful and unbearable experience possible, I doubt someone is going to have the energy or will to focus on what they did wrong, they'd be consumed by anguish. And you don't need to be tortured to know you did something wrong, you can simply be told, further exposing hell's absurdity.



    Non-Muslims are destined to be in hell forever, as espoused by the Quran. And even one second in hell is unjust and disproportionate to any punishment that can be committed on Earth.

    No, a murderer goes to jail to keep them out of society, not for some random, illogical reason.



    As mentioned, non-Muslims never leave hell, whether they feel remorse or not. And hell being temporary for some people does not justify it.

    Seriously? You're trying to tell me that torturing someone in the most brutal and horrific ways is Allah showing care and love?! Are you trolling?



    Nonsense, your argument is as weak as your theology. You erroneously claimed being in hell acts as an incentive, when that claim doesn't even make sense. Moreover, you have totally failed to justify hell's existence and cannot resolve its blatant inconsistencies and contradictions.
    looool so suppose I told you become a Muslim, everything else is wrong would you believe me?

    Honestly, we keep going into circles. Going to hell is derived from not obeying Allah's rules and guidelines, that is not an illogical reason.

    You can say hell is an unjust punishment but I feel it is just. It would be kind of unjust if we had no choice and were forced to go to hell - but we aren't. Allah has given us free will to choose what to do and therefore choose our setting in the hereafter.

    And you've just stuck two different sentences I said together. As I mentioned earlier, Allah allowing someone to move from Hell to Heaven demonstrates how great Allah's mercy is because even though they did go against Allah's rulings and displease Allah, Allah has still forgiven them and allowed them into heaven.

    Anyways this argument is starting to become like a circle, we will see when we die whether hell exists or not. Until that day, I make supplication to Allah on your behalf that Allah will lead you to the right path.
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    (Original post by ozilll)
    looool so suppose I told you become a Muslim, everything else is wrong would you believe me?
    Don't understand what you're trying to say here.

    Honestly, we keep going into circles. Going to hell is derived from not obeying Allah's rules and guidelines, that is not an illogical reason.
    Of course it is. It's only purpose is bloodthirsty revenge and it is totally disproportionate to any crime that can be committed.

    You can say hell is an unjust punishment but I feel it is just. It would be kind of unjust if we had no choice and were forced to go to hell - but we aren't. Allah has given us free will to choose what to do and therefore choose our setting in the hereafter.
    See above, it is the very definition of unjust. It would be like sentencing someone to life in prison for stealing a lollipop.

    We are forced to go to hell because everyone who ends up there does so because of Allah, they have no say in the matter. No one would willingly throw themselves into hell.

    And you've just stuck two different sentences I said together. As I mentioned earlier, Allah allowing someone to move from Hell to Heaven demonstrates how great Allah's mercy is because even though they did go against Allah's rulings and displease Allah, Allah has still forgiven them and allowed them into heaven.
    Nonsense. Torturing someone in hell in the first place cancels any mercy, love and care he may have. And as mentioned, non-Muslims will be in hell forever.

    Anyways this argument is starting to become like a circle, we will see when we die whether hell exists or not. Until that day, I make supplication to Allah on your behalf that Allah will lead you to the right path.
    Not at all. Hell is inconsistent, illogical and has more holes in it than Swiss cheese, so I don't need to wait till death to know it isn't real.
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    You'll regret this one day. lol.
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    (Original post by ozilll)
    Allah wants what is best for us and if that means setting out a degree of fear to put us on the good path then why not?
    Allah probably does not realise how counterproductive all his violent statements are.

    How is it possible to respect, admire, and even worship an entity that spends his time threatening people if they don't believe in him ? who promises the most terrible and painful tortures if he does not get his monopoly of worship ?

    personally, I would deeply despise such a vain, violent, blackmailing thug (if he existed). And I am amazed that you don't realise this : Allah's bombastic, threatening statements, far from impressing or intimidating people, simply disgust and repel most of them

    a very, very ineffective and hateful dawah, I must say : absurdly counterproductive

    best
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    (Original post by ozilll)
    not every sinner will go to hell for eternity - except those who believe in shirk.
    of course. Not believing in your "god", but in one of his competitors, is clearly worse than murdering millions. What a joke

    best
 
 
 
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