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    (Original post by javedkid123)
    Plan to hide it.



    You sign a deal with the devil. Just joking, you deny one of the six pillars of iman.

    Belief in Allah
    His Angels
    His Books
    His messengers
    The hereafter
    And Qadr ( both good and bad)

    I deny his books and messengers. This nullifies my religion
    Good for you bro but you dont new to make an annoucement about it. I am sure you will come back when you see the right path. Islam is perfect what might not be is your preception of islam or up bringing.
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    (Original post by ozilll)
    Yes but religion doesn't only teach you to be a good person.
    OK, so you're admitting that you don't need religion to be a good person.

    It essentially gives you life skills that you wouldn't have been able to form unless you had the experience.
    Name me one essential life skill that can only be done with religion?

    For example, as we both know Islam forbids sex before marriage.
    You don't need to be religious to avoid sex before marriage and being religious doesn't mean you'll save yourself. Plenty of Muslim commit what you call zina!

    As we are both at the age of maturity, we can understand why; because sex before marriage increases your chances of diseases and what not.
    Have you any evidence for this claim? As long as you take the right precautions there is no reason whatsoever why you would get an STD by having sex before marriage.

    Surely at ages of 10 and 11 you wouldn't have been able to think that sex before marriage is bad because you didn't know what it led to.
    What does it lead to, enjoying more sexual experiences before marriage? What's wrong with that?

    So I feel although as human beings we do have common sense which you mention we aren't smart enough to easily judge what is good or what is bad.
    Speak for yourself. If you want to insult your own intelligence then go ahead, but the rest of us are perfectly capable of looking at the world around us and making informed, sensible decisions on what's right and wrong.

    Which I feel as an atheist who chooses to follow their own morals and principles, that you are essentially are going the long way when concluding what is good and what is bad.
    If the "long way" is critically analysing an action in determining whether we should do it rather than blindly following a command then I'll take the long way any day of the week!

    All I know of the Euthypro Dilemma, is that it is an argument to which whether a thing is good because God says it is good, or does God say it's good because it is good. I agree with the former because again using my rationale above at the end of the day we do not have the capability of being able to know what is good or what is bad unless we have experience in the aforementioned act. So I therefore choose to follow the all-knowing as Allah swt knows everything before I've even thought about it and in sunk is, I feel the best way to ensure I live a successful life.
    OK, then you have just admitted there is no objective morality. If something is only good because God says it is then you're saying morals are arbitrarily and capriciously chosen by God, making them no better than our own subjective morals.
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    (Original post by ozilll)
    May I ask why you seem to dislike Islam? Is it because of TSR?
    (Original post by AEFRGF)
    Good for you bro but you dont new to make an annoucement about it. I am sure you will come back when you see the right path. Islam is perfect what might not be is your preception of islam or up bringing.
    Hi. Islam might be perceived as perfect but it doesn't mean it's true. I could write holy scripture now consisting of one page and call it perfect. No one would believe it to come from the heavens though.

    Why not try and present some reasons on why the religion is true?
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    (Original post by muzi123)
    All u disbelievers dont worry your time will surely come for God is ever all patient

    And they urge you to hasten the punishment. And if not for [the decree of] a specified term, punishment would have reached them. But it will surely come to them suddenly while they perceive not.
    promises, promises ...
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    OK, so you're admitting that you don't need religion to be a good person.



    Name me one essential life skill that can only be done with religion?



    You don't need to be religious to avoid sex before marriage and being religious doesn't mean you'll save yourself. Plenty of Muslim commit what you call zina!



    Have you any evidence for this claim? As long as you take the right precautions there is no reason whatsoever why you would get an STD by having sex before marriage.



    What does it lead to, enjoying more sexual experiences before marriage? What's wrong with that?



    Speak for yourself. If you want to insult your own intelligence then go ahead, but the rest of us are perfectly capable of looking at the world around us and making informed, sensible decisions on what's right and wrong.



    If the "long way" is critically analysing an action in determining whether we should do it rather than blindly following a command then I'll take the long way any day of the week!



    OK, then you have just admitted there is no objective morality. If something is only good because God says it is then you're saying morals are arbitrarily and capriciously chosen by God, making them no better than our own subjective morals.
    Nope I was saying that religion teaches you more than to be a good person. Personally I feel without religion I'd make wayyyy more mistakes than I already have and I feel that is the same with other people I've met. Religion brings a sense of aim to your life as well as some form of identity.

    Neither was I saying that only religion can teach you life skills. I was saying that yes without religion it is possible to gain life skills but it is much longer to do so as you have to experience the moment in order to actually follow it. Like for example alcohol is bad for you (there is no two ways about it) and when youre drinking your beer or what not you think to yourself oh its fine everyone is drinking it or whatever reason you come up with. But later on, down the line, you end up with liver problems and then you realise oh alcohol is bad. Religion, specifically Islam in this case, cuts that long period as I've been given a rule where alcohol is not allowed and this is because it harms the body.

    Of course you do not need religion to avoid sex before marriage. But if you were in a situation where you could have sex before marriage, ceterius paribus, a person who wasn't religious (specifically muslim) would be trapped by the temptation whereas a muslim shouldn't as there are strict rules saying otherwise (your point on some muslims committing zina is worthless here because I'm talking about what is given to me from Allah swt not how people react to it).

    And loooool there are countless types of situations where diseases and unplanned children occur due to sex before marriage (even with the right precautions) it may not be theoretically correct, but in reality we do see it!

    the purpose of sex isn't to pleasure yourself, thats just wrong. sex is to make babies end of story (i dont want to argue about even though im 99% sure you'll bring it up)

    I'm not going against my intelligence by worshipping Allah swt. I'm not sure what you are as in if youre theist, atheist and stuff so I won't go down the why god exists argument but we always naturally assume stuff are made by someone so why can't we assume that God made us?

    Fine you want to take the 'long way' to be scientifically correct, but when a 1400 year old book proves things which science does years later then surely the 'long way' is definitely the long way!

    Yes I believe our morals are subjective, I personally find that helping other people out is right whereas other people I have met have disagreed with me. Morals are subjective and depend on the person in question. Therefore What is good and bad should be set by the all-knowing which in my case is Allah swt.
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    (Original post by ozilll)
    Nope I was saying that religion teaches you more than to be a good person. Personally I feel without religion I'd make wayyyy more mistakes than I already have and I feel that is the same with other people I've met. Religion brings a sense of aim to your life as well as some form of identity.

    Neither was I saying that only religion can teach you life skills. I was saying that yes without religion it is possible to gain life skills but it is much longer to do so as you have to experience the moment in order to actually follow it. Like for example alcohol is bad for you (there is no two ways about it) and when youre drinking your beer or what not you think to yourself oh its fine everyone is drinking it or whatever reason you come up with. But later on, down the line, you end up with liver problems and then you realise oh alcohol is bad. Religion, specifically Islam in this case, cuts that long period as I've been given a rule where alcohol is not allowed and this is because it harms the body.

    Of course you do not need religion to avoid sex before marriage. But if you were in a situation where you could have sex before marriage, ceterius paribus, a person who wasn't religious (specifically muslim) would be trapped by the temptation whereas a muslim shouldn't as there are strict rules saying otherwise (your point on some muslims committing zina is worthless here because I'm talking about what is given to me from Allah swt not how people react to it).

    And loooool there are countless types of situations where diseases and unplanned children occur due to sex before marriage (even with the right precautions) it may not be theoretically correct, but in reality we do see it!

    the purpose of sex isn't to pleasure yourself, thats just wrong. sex is to make babies end of story (i dont want to argue about even though im 99% sure you'll bring it up)

    I'm not going against my intelligence by worshipping Allah swt. I'm not sure what you are as in if youre theist, atheist and stuff so I won't go down the why god exists argument but we always naturally assume stuff are made by someone so why can't we assume that God made us?

    Fine you want to take the 'long way' to be scientifically correct, but when a 1400 year old book proves things which science does years later then surely the 'long way' is definitely the long way!

    Yes I believe our morals are subjective, I personally find that helping other people out is right whereas other people I have met have disagreed with me. Morals are subjective and depend on the person in question. Therefore What is good and bad should be set by the all-knowing which in my case is Allah swt.
    I feel like overall most Religions teach people to be good people and that's great but how do you feel about the fact all of the Religions I can think of reward obedience in that you have to behave the way you are told or you get a bad afterlife even if you could come up with reasons why acting in such a way would be un-ethical.
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    The people around you pushed you away from a beautiful religion. That's truly saddening and showing violence to homosexuals is not the right way to teach children about life. You mentioned you were salafi and in man wondering if it was a salafi imam that gave this lecture to the children?
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    (Original post by DogeOfDisaproval)
    I feel like overall most Religions teach people to be good people and that's great but how do you feel about the fact all of the Religions I can think of reward obedience in that you have to behave the way you are told or you get a bad afterlife even if you could come up with reasons why acting in such a way would be un-ethical.
    I understand there is a degree of incentive when getting us to do the right thing, but isn't that necessary? Sometimes even the most 'Islamic' of people face temptations and the only way to discard that is by remembering the hell you'll face after that. Because at the end of the day, as slaves of Allah swt, Allah just wants what is best for us. And personally as a Muslim myself I try do not use this incentive reasoning when following the rules of Islam. My rationale is that as I was created by Allah swt I do not want to displease my creator like I wouldn't want to disrespect my parents as they delivered me to this world.
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    (Original post by ozilll)
    I understand there is a degree of incentive when getting us to do the right thing, but isn't that necessary? Sometimes even the most 'Islamic' of people face temptations and the only way to discard that is by remembering the hell you'll face after that. Because at the end of the day, as slaves of Allah swt, Allah just wants what is best for us. And personally as a Muslim myself I try do not use this incentive reasoning when following the rules of Islam. My rationale is that as I was created by Allah swt I do not want to displease my creator like I wouldn't want to disrespect my parents as they delivered me to this world.
    If the only incentive to be a good person stems from your religion do you think all non religious people are bad people? Also a bit off topic but have you ever thought that God could be real but wrong about some things? Is this a thought that is frowned upon by Muslims or maybe not even thought about?
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    (Original post by DogeOfDisaproval)
    If the only incentive to be a good person stems from your religion do you think all non religious people are bad people? Also a bit off topic but have you ever thought that God could be real but wrong about some things? Is this a thought that is frowned upon by Muslims or maybe not even thought about?
    Well most non-religious people tend to disagree with some of Islam's teachings however I'd never say they are a bad person. we must respect each others religions like said in the quran (109:6) - one of my most favourite sentences in the Quran.

    I don't feel God is wrong but please may you elaborate on this point? I'm not sure whether Muslims have ever thought about it, but going against the rulings & guidelines of Allah is wrong yes
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    (Original post by ozilll)
    Well most non-religious people tend to disagree with some of Islam's teachings however I'd never say they are a bad person. we must respect each others religions like said in the quran (109:6) - one of my most favourite sentences in the Quran.

    I don't feel God is wrong but please may you elaborate on this point? I'm not sure whether Muslims have ever thought about it, but going against the rulings & guidelines of Allah is wrong yes
    Have you ever thought that it is possible for anything God has said or done to be wrong? or even questionable? or if something seemed wrong to you that God had done would it simply be put down to something along the lines of God is smarter than us and has a greater plan etc

    and to follow this up if God did something that we consider to be wrong or even evil could we use it as justification for carrying out similar acts?

    Feel free to tell me to shut up btw
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    (Original post by ozilll)
    Nope I was saying that religion teaches you more than to be a good person.
    You still haven't named an essential life skill that can only be taught using religion.

    Personally I feel without religion I'd make wayyyy more mistakes than I already have and I feel that is the same with other people I've met. Religion brings a sense of aim to your life as well as some form of identity.
    That's a belief for which there is no real evidence. In general, non-religious people do not appear to make more "mistakes" than the religious. Again, identity and purpose come in many different forms and need not rely on religion.

    Neither was I saying that only religion can teach you life skills. I was saying that yes without religion it is possible to gain life skills but it is much longer to do so as you have to experience the moment in order to actually follow it.
    How is it that much longer to do so? :confused:

    Like for example alcohol is bad for you (there is no two ways about it) and when youre drinking your beer or what not you think to yourself oh its fine everyone is drinking it or whatever reason you come up with. But later on, down the line, you end up with liver problems and then you realise oh alcohol is bad. Religion, specifically Islam in this case, cuts that long period as I've been given a rule where alcohol is not allowed and this is because it harms the body.
    You don't need to try alcohol or smoking or whatever to know it's bad for you. We have minds which can make those kind of decisions just as quickly as you. Difference is that we usually make those decisions for practical, sensible reasons rather than just "because someone told me". Again, plenty of non-Muslims don't drink and plenty of Muslims do, so a religious rule is not really a guarantee of anything.

    Of course you do not need religion to avoid sex before marriage. But if you were in a situation where you could have sex before marriage, ceterius paribus, a person who wasn't religious (specifically muslim) would be trapped by the temptation whereas a muslim shouldn't as there are strict rules saying otherwise (your point on some muslims committing zina is worthless here because I'm talking about what is given to me from Allah swt not how people react to it).
    I'm not sure this is true. Temptation is temptation, and most people are subject to it. Being a Muslim doesn't magically make that disappear, it just means they may try harder to overcome that temptation because of the threat of hellfire. In any case, there is nothing wrong with giving in to temptation and having sex, it's a perfectly normal, natural human experience.

    No, it's not worthless because this entire discussion has revolved around how people actually act and the skills they gain from religion. The truth is that religion does not stop people from doing what they want. It never has and never will.

    And loooool there are countless types of situations where diseases and unplanned children occur due to sex before marriage (even with the right precautions) it may not be theoretically correct, but in reality we do see it!
    None of which are specific to pre-marriage and all of which can occur within marriage!

    the purpose of sex isn't to pleasure yourself, thats just wrong. sex is to make babies end of story (i dont want to argue about even though im 99% sure you'll bring it up)
    False, most of the times sex is for pleasure and most of the time people do not have sex with the intention of having children. I'm afraid you're arguing against Allah on this one because it is an undeniable fact that people have sexual urges for their entire lives and that includes women long after the time they are unable to have children. Therefore, if sex were only meant for reproduction then these urges would disappear the second the woman completed the menopause, and they don't! We also know of several animals that have sex purely for pleasure, and according to you they only act the way Allah made them!

    I'm not going against my intelligence by worshipping Allah swt. I'm not sure what you are as in if youre theist, atheist and stuff so I won't go down the why god exists argument but we always naturally assume stuff are made by someone so why can't we assume that God made us?
    You can believe what you want, but there's no scientific evidence we were made by God. We know for a fact that we evolved and that we're not made from clay.

    Fine you want to take the 'long way' to be scientifically correct, but when a 1400 year old book proves things which science does years later then surely the 'long way' is definitely the long way!
    Muslims say this all the time, but the Quran has proven no such thing at all. In fact, it contains many scientific errors and inaccuracies.

    Yes I believe our morals are subjective, I personally find that helping other people out is right whereas other people I have met have disagreed with me. Morals are subjective and depend on the person in question. Therefore What is good and bad should be set by the all-knowing which in my case is Allah swt.
    Therefore his morality is not objective and just as subjective as ours.
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    (Original post by DogeOfDisaproval)
    Have you ever thought that it is possible for anything God has said or done to be wrong? or even questionable? or if something seemed wrong to you that God had done would it simply be put down to something along the lines of God is smarter than us and has a greater plan etc

    and to follow this up if God did something that we consider to be wrong or even evil could we use it as justification for carrying out similar acts?

    Feel free to tell me to shut up btw
    Arguments that suggest that a "God" is perfect, often fall through pretty quickly.
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    (Original post by ozilll)
    Yes but religion doesn't only teach you to be a good person. It essentially gives you life skills that you wouldn't have been able to form unless you had the experience (1). For example, as we both know Islam forbids sex before marriage. As we are both at the age of maturity, we can understand why; because sex before marriage increases your chances of diseases and what not. (2) Surely at ages of 10 and 11 you wouldn't have been able to think that sex before marriage is bad (3) because you didn't know what it led to. So I feel although as human beings we do have common sense which you mention we aren't smart enough to easily judge what is good or what is bad. (4) Which I feel as an atheist who chooses to x that you are essentially are going the long way when concluding what is good and what is bad.

    All I know of the Euthypro Dilemma, is that it is an argument to which whether a thing is good because God says it is good, or does God say it's good because it is good. I agree with the former because again using my rationale above at the end of the day we do not have the capability of being able to know what is good or what is bad unless we have experience in the aforementioned act. So I therefore choose to follow the all-knowing as Allah swt knows everything before I've even thought about it and in sunk is, I feel the best way to ensure I live a successful life.
    1. Life skills? Like what? Is abstinence a "life skill"?
    2. No it doesn't. Not using contraception, however, does. Whether you're married to an individual may make you more likely to know of any STIs, due to the personal connection that is assumedly present. However, this does not occur purely because you're married to an individual, it rather occurs in the development of the relationship that would, again, assumedly, precede marriage.
    3. Really? Children are impressionable, and being told "you shouldn't have sex until marriage, or else you will suffer in the afterlife", will likely scare the child into submission, as they have an ignorant, unambiguous, trust, of those who surround them.
    4. There exists irreligious sources of morality outside religion, as you should know.
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    (Original post by javedkid123)
    Tried going anonymous but F it.

    AMA I guess ?
    Dude what are you getting from making this thread

    more reps
    sympathy from all the non muslim people

    By the end of the day what have you gained from this?
    nothing

    I was in the same situation as you sometime ago
    PM me if you want a further convo about this

    If this makes you happy then go for it
    It just made me a little sad at looking at this I feel like we have something in common
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    (Original post by javedkid123)
    Tried going anonymous but F it.

    AMA I guess ?
    So wat shud we do..... u just want attention bruh dont u?
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    (Original post by _gcx)
    Arguments that suggest that a "God" is perfect, often fall through pretty quickly.
    I was asking their opinion because I wanted to know what they thought but if you were so inclined saying something like "God is greater and smarter than us we couldn't begin to understand Gods plan". While not a great answer it seems as good as a defense as anything else I have ever heard a religious person say.
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    without religion we are free to run wild and do as we please and that leads to chaos...as we see in todays 'godless' world, it's a very corrupt one where the weak and poor suffer and the rich and powerful prosper
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    You will regret it sooner or later
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    (Original post by ozilll)
    Nope I was saying that religion teaches you more than to be a good person. Personally I feel without religion I'd make wayyyy more mistakes than I already have and I feel that is the same with other people I've met. Religion brings a sense of aim to your life as well as some form of identity.

    Neither was I saying that only religion can teach you life skills. I was saying that yes without religion it is possible to gain life skills but it is much longer to do so as you have to experience the moment in order to actually follow it. Like for example alcohol is bad for you (there is no two ways about it) and when youre drinking your beer or what not you think to yourself oh its fine everyone is drinking it or whatever reason you come up with. But later on, down the line, you end up with liver problems and then you realise oh alcohol is bad. Religion, specifically Islam in this case, cuts that long period as I've been given a rule where alcohol is not allowed and this is because it harms the body.

    Of course you do not need religion to avoid sex before marriage. But if you were in a situation where you could have sex before marriage, ceterius paribus, a person who wasn't religious (specifically muslim) would be trapped by the temptation whereas a muslim shouldn't as there are strict rules saying otherwise (your point on some muslims committing zina is worthless here because I'm talking about what is given to me from Allah swt not how people react to it).

    And loooool there are countless types of situations where diseases and unplanned children occur due to sex before marriage (even with the right precautions) it may not be theoretically correct, but in reality we do see it!

    the purpose of sex isn't to pleasure yourself, thats just wrong. sex is to make babies end of story (i dont want to argue about even though im 99% sure you'll bring it up)

    I'm not going against my intelligence by worshipping Allah swt. I'm not sure what you are as in if youre theist, atheist and stuff so I won't go down the why god exists argument but we always naturally assume stuff are made by someone so why can't we assume that God made us?

    Fine you want to take the 'long way' to be scientifically correct, but when a 1400 year old book proves things which science does years later then surely the 'long way' is definitely the long way!

    Yes I believe our morals are subjective, I personally find that helping other people out is right whereas other people I have met have disagreed with me. Morals are subjective and depend on the person in question. Therefore What is good and bad should be set by the all-knowing which in my case is Allah swt.
    My parents are atheists (I'm not) as were their parents.

    Despite this, they have only ever had each other, are not alcoholics (nor have liver damage), are good people and would wholeheartedly disagree that sex is just about making babies, it is so much more than that (and I mean at an emotional connection rather than pleasurable level).

    This year in June, they will be celebrating 57 years of marriage.

    They didn't need a book (of any faith), to guide them in their moral code or to give them a purpose in life.
 
 
 
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