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    (Original post by cupcakes87)
    I didn't know you were a revert! Also prsom
    He isn't a revert - he is saying that at his mosque, there are reverts there
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    He isn't a revert - he is saying that at his mosque, there are reverts there
    Oh dear you can tell I need to sleep 😂 and that makes much more sense 😌
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    (Original post by Asiangirl_18)
    I personally don't believe there are flaws in Islam
    Then either you do not know the Quran, or you chose not to question it...
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    (Original post by cupcakes87)
    I didn't know you were a revert! Also prsom
    Apologies, I might have worded that sentence in a strange way.
    I meant I knew reverts who didn't change their names.
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    (Original post by robbo3045)
    Then either you do not know the Quran, or you chose not to question it...
    care to elaborate on the flaws
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    So you said you denied the Qur'an al Kareem and the Messengers of Allah, but you didn't mention the same about Al-Qadr, the Angels and Allah. In order to believe the latter (from an Islamic p.o.v.) where would your source of knowledge come on these matters- which are all integral parts of the Qur'an and if not the Qur'an, then parts of hadith- on which, you are able to believe in these but disregard the above mentioned two? If you pertain to the belief of the latter, and you have derived your conclusions from your pre-existent knowledge sourced from the Qur'an, how do you disbelieve in the Qur'an?

    Just wondering!

    Also, I was curious on your view of the adhan- if possible, could you report back your thoughts/feelings upon listening to the adhan at this current point?

    Lastly, I wanted to know your opinion of the following book- "The Spectacle of Death" by Khawaja Muhammad Islam, (if you have ever read it or ever plan to read it.)

    Thanks.
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    (Original post by iceberger)
    care to elaborate on the flaws (of the Quran)
    any book which prescribes punishments such as crucifixion, or cutting off limbs on opposite sides, is terminally flawed

    same for the Islamic toothbrush wife-bashing advice

    or for the kuffar (disbelievers) being the "vilest of creatures" etc etc etc

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    You make it sound like the start of a rap

    Just left Islam
    Took a broke brother's Mahram
    I made her do some Haram
    :cool:
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    (Original post by javedkid123)
    Tried going anonymous but F it.

    AMA I guess ?
    By 'left Islam' what do you mean?

    What do you still believe in that you used to and why?

    What do you not believe anymore and why?
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    any book which prescribes punishments such as crucifixion, or cutting off limbs on opposite sides, is terminally flawed

    same for the Islamic toothbrush wife-bashing advice

    or for the kuffar (disbelievers) being the "vilest of creatures" etc etc etc

    best
    could you provide references from the quran where it says these things
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    (Original post by iceberger)
    could you provide references from the quran where it says these things
    you mean - you don't know your own holy book and need special kaffir (unbeliever) guidance from me ?

    in any case, since I am in a generous mood, here is :

    the kuffar (unbelievers) as "vilest of creatures" is in 8:55

    the crucifixion, cutting off limbs on opposite sides etc is in 5:33

    4:34 advises Muslim husbands to beat wives who repeatedly disobey : no further details are supplied but the toothbrush (miswak) is however mentioned in a sahih hadith (authentic narration),

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    (Original post by mariachi)
    you mean - you don't know your own holy book and need special kaffir (unbeliever) guidance from me ?

    in any case, since I am in a generous mood, here is :

    the kuffar (unbelievers) as "vilest of creatures" is in 8:55

    the crucifixion, cutting off limbs on opposite sides etc is in 5:33

    4:34 advises Muslim husbands to beat wives who repeatedly disobey : no further details are supplied but the toothbrush (miswak) is however mentioned in a sahih hadith (authentic narration),

    best
    It's easy to cherry pick verses from any form of text and portray them out of context.

    Without doubt the worst of creatures in Allah's sight are those who commit kufr (disbelief) and will therefore not have iman (belief). (8:55) - This verse was revealed in response to when the jewish banu qurayzah tribe of Madina had entered into a treaty with the muslims promising that they will not assist an enemy against the muslims, but they broke the treaty by assisting the hypocrites of Makkah to fight the muslims.

    Regarding (5:33) it does state those punishments but the verses before are explaining the story of abel and cain and how cain murdered his brother. These punishments are as a deterrent. The verse before actually states: 'Whoever preserves a life, it is as if he preserved the lives of the entire mankind' (5:32)

    It's always best to read a whole paragraph or chapter to understand what the author is saying.
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    (Original post by iceberger)
    Regarding (5:33) it does state those punishments but the verses before are explaining the story of abel and cain and how cain murdered his brother. These punishments are as a deterrent. The verse before actually states: 'Whoever preserves a life, it is as if he preserved the lives of the entire mankind' (5:32)
    You have not given the full verse, which is:

    Shakir: For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land. (5:32)

    The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, (5:33)

    Except those who repent before you have them in your power; so know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (5:34)

    So, the "whoever preserves a life" part is quite nullified by the statement just before, telling that you can kill someone if they "make mischief in the land", which is extremely vague and can mean pretty much anything. The following verse explicitly adds that murder, crucifixion, cutting limbs, etc. should not only be used as deterrents (as you said), but as punishments for having waged a war against Allah and/or Mohammed. Unless they repent, Allah is indeed so merciful.

    As you said: "It's easy to cherry pick verses from any form of text and portray them out of context. It's always best to read a whole paragraph or chapter to understand what the author is saying".
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    (Original post by iceberger)
    It's easy to cherry pick verses from any form of text and portray them out of context..
    you asked me where in the Quran one could find what I had mentioned . I gave you the verses.

    You should thank me for this (and improve your knowledge of the Quran)

    On the substance, josb has provided an excellent answer.

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    (Original post by Josb)
    You have not given the full verse, which is:

    Shakir: For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land. (5:32)

    The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, (5:33)

    Except those who repent before you have them in your power; so know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (5:34)

    So, the "whoever preserves a life" part is quite nullified by the statement just before, telling that you can kill someone if they "make mischief in the land", which is extremely vague and can mean pretty much anything. The following verse explicitly adds that murder, crucifixion, cutting limbs, etc. should not only be used as deterrents (as you said), but as punishments for having waged a war against Allah and/or Mohammed. Unless they repent, Allah is indeed so merciful.

    As you said: "It's easy to cherry pick verses from any form of text and portray them out of context. It's always best to read a whole paragraph or chapter to understand what the author is saying".
    "It's always best to read a whole paragraph or chapter to understand what the author is saying"


    'And recite to them the story of the two sons of Adam truthfully. When they both offered a sacrifice, then it was accepted from one of them and was not accepted from the other. He said, '1 will kill you!' He said, "Allah accepts only from the God-fearing. [27] If you stretch your hand towards me to kill me, I am not going to stretch my hand towards you to kill you. Of course, I fear Allah, the Lord of the worlds. [28] I would rather have you earn my sin and your sin and then become one of the people of the Fire. And that is the punishment of the unjust!' [29] His self, however, prompted him to kill his brother, so he killed him and became one of the losers. [30] Then, Allah sent a crow who was scratching the earth to show him how he should hide the corpse of his brother. He said, "Alas! Was I not even able to be like this crow so that I could hide the corpse of my brother? So, he stood regretful. [31] For this reason, We prescribed for the children of Isra'il that whoever kills a person not (to retaliate) for a person killed nor (to punish) for spreading disorder in the earth, is as if he has killed the whole mankind, and whoever saves the life of a person is as if he has saved the life of the whole mankind. And certainly, Our messengers have come to them with clear signs. Then, after all that, many of them are there to commit excesses on the earth.'[32]
    (5: 27-32)

    The previous verses (5: 20-26) describe how the israelites turned out to be cowardly and evasive when they disobeyed a divine command, so they were made to wander the valley for 40 yrs as punishment. In contrast the above verses narrate the story of abel and cain to condemn unjust killing and the destruction it brings in its wake. "We prescribed for the children of Isra'il that whoever kills a person not (to retaliate) for a person killed nor (to punish) for spreading disorder in the earth" - you mentioned 'mischief' or 'spreading disorder' is vague but this point is clarified in the next verses.

    'Those who fight against Allah and His Messenger and run about trying to spread disorder in the earth, their punishment is nothing but that they shall be killed off or be crucified or their hands and legs be cut apart from different sides or they be kept away from the land (they live in). That is a humiliation for them in this world, and for them in the Hereafter there is a great punishment; [33] except those who repent before you overpower them. Then, be sure that Allah is Most- Forgiving, Very-Merciful.' [34] (5: 33-34)

    To understand the context of the verses you have to read an authentic commentary written by scholars who have dedicated their lives to understanding the quran. In the above verses are mentioned the legal punishments for killing, plundering, robbery and theft.

    1. What does 'fighting' (Muharubah) against Allah and His Messenger and spreading disorder in the earth mean, and to whom does this apply? The word, Muhzrabah is derived from Harb and intrinsically means to wrest or snatch away. In Arabic usage, it is used against Salrn which means peace aid security. Thus, we can see that, the sense of Harb (fight) is the spreading of disorder. It is obvious that rare incidents of theft or killing and plundering do not cause public Peace to be disturbed. In fact, this happens only when a powerful group stands up to carry out acts of robbery, killing and plundering. Therefore, according to Muslim jurists, the punishment in this verse is meant for a group or an individual who robs people and breaks the law of the land by the force of arms. This will not include those who indulge in common individual crimes such as thieves and pick-pockets. (Tafsir Mazhari)

    2. The second point worth noticing in this verse is that Muharabah' (fighting) of the criminals is said to be against Allah and His Messenger, though the confrontation or fighting waged by robbers and rebels is apparently against human beings. The reason is that a powerful group when it elects to break the Law given by Allah and His blessed Messenger with force, it is really at war with the government, even though they are obviously carrying out their aggression against common human beings. But, when the government itself is Islamic, a government which subscribes to and enforces the Law of Allah and His Messenger, this act of 'fighting' (Muhgrabah) will invariably be regarded as being 'against' Allah and His Messenger.

    Furthermore the whole commentary that details on the punishments is very lengthy and explains in detail why they are such. I do not wish to post here because it will turn the post into an article but if you are interested read an authentic commentary such as 'ibn kathir's' or 'maariful quran'.

    So in reply 'whoever preserves a life' is not nullified.
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    (Original post by iceberger)
    "It's always best to read a whole paragraph or chapter to understand what the author is saying"


    'And recite to them the story of the two sons of Adam truthfully. When they both offered a sacrifice, then it was accepted from one of them and was not accepted from the other. He said, '1 will kill you!' He said, "Allah accepts only from the God-fearing. [27] If you stretch your hand towards me to kill me, I am not going to stretch my hand towards you to kill you. Of course, I fear Allah, the Lord of the worlds. [28] I would rather have you earn my sin and your sin and then become one of the people of the Fire. And that is the punishment of the unjust!' [29] His self, however, prompted him to kill his brother, so he killed him and became one of the losers. [30] Then, Allah sent a crow who was scratching the earth to show him how he should hide the corpse of his brother. He said, "Alas! Was I not even able to be like this crow so that I could hide the corpse of my brother? So, he stood regretful. [31] For this reason, We prescribed for the children of Isra'il that whoever kills a person not (to retaliate) for a person killed nor (to punish) for spreading disorder in the earth, is as if he has killed the whole mankind, and whoever saves the life of a person is as if he has saved the life of the whole mankind. And certainly, Our messengers have come to them with clear signs. Then, after all that, many of them are there to commit excesses on the earth.'[32]
    (5: 27-32)

    The previous verses (5: 20-26) describe how the israelites turned out to be cowardly and evasive when they disobeyed a divine command, so they were made to wander the valley for 40 yrs as punishment. In contrast the above verses narrate the story of abel and cain to condemn unjust killing and the destruction it brings in its wake. "We prescribed for the children of Isra'il that whoever kills a person not (to retaliate) for a person killed nor (to punish) for spreading disorder in the earth" - you mentioned 'mischief' or 'spreading disorder' is vague but this point is clarified in the next verses.

    'Those who fight against Allah and His Messenger and run about trying to spread disorder in the earth, their punishment is nothing but that they shall be killed off or be crucified or their hands and legs be cut apart from different sides or they be kept away from the land (they live in). That is a humiliation for them in this world, and for them in the Hereafter there is a great punishment; [33] except those who repent before you overpower them. Then, be sure that Allah is Most- Forgiving, Very-Merciful.' [34] (5: 33-34)

    To understand the context of the verses you have to read an authentic commentary written by scholars who have dedicated their lives to understanding the quran. In the above verses are mentioned the legal punishments for killing, plundering, robbery and theft.

    1. What does 'fighting' (Muharubah) against Allah and His Messenger and spreading disorder in the earth mean, and to whom does this apply? The word, Muhzrabah is derived from Harb and intrinsically means to wrest or snatch away. In Arabic usage, it is used against Salrn which means peace aid security. Thus, we can see that, the sense of Harb (fight) is the spreading of disorder. It is obvious that rare incidents of theft or killing and plundering do not cause public Peace to be disturbed. In fact, this happens only when a powerful group stands up to carry out acts of robbery, killing and plundering. Therefore, according to Muslim jurists, the punishment in this verse is meant for a group or an individual who robs people and breaks the law of the land by the force of arms. This will not include those who indulge in common individual crimes such as thieves and pick-pockets. (Tafsir Mazhari)

    2. The second point worth noticing in this verse is that Muharabah' (fighting) of the criminals is said to be against Allah and His Messenger, though the confrontation or fighting waged by robbers and rebels is apparently against human beings. The reason is that a powerful group when it elects to break the Law given by Allah and His blessed Messenger with force, it is really at war with the government, even though they are obviously carrying out their aggression against common human beings. But, when the government itself is Islamic, a government which subscribes to and enforces the Law of Allah and His Messenger, this act of 'fighting' (Muhgrabah) will invariably be regarded as being 'against' Allah and His Messenger.

    Furthermore the whole commentary that details on the punishments is very lengthy and explains in detail why they are such. I do not wish to post here because it will turn the post into an article but if you are interested read an authentic commentary such as 'ibn kathir's' or 'maariful quran'.

    So in reply 'whoever preserves a life' is not nullified.
    whatever floats your boat

    personally, I consider crucifixion and cutting off limbs on opposite sides (or on the same side, for that) as an unacceptable form of punishment and torture,

    and this, for me,is more than enough : as I wrote, any religious text allowing such practices is terminally flawed

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    (Original post by iceberger)
    care to elaborate on the flaws
    It has different interpretations that all claim to be right and and the others wrong. If it was perfect it would be impossible to interpret it any way except the way Allah meant it. This was one of the main things for me when I really started thinking about it. It so obviously isn't perfect. A team of good lawyers could rewrite it better so it meant exactly what Allah meant. If we knew what he meant but we dont we are just guessing because he didn't make it perfectly clear.
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    (Original post by iceberger)
    care to elaborate on the flaws
    What about the sun setting in a pool of mud (and the had it which elaborates on it). I assume you know what verse I'm talking about so I don't have to provide the reference.
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    (Original post by guided1)
    It has different interpretations that all claim to be right and and the others wrong. If it was perfect it would be impossible to interpret it any way except the way Allah meant it. This was one of the main things for me when I really started thinking about it. It so obviously isn't perfect. A team of good lawyers could rewrite it better so it meant exactly what Allah meant. If we knew what he meant but we dont we are just guessing because he didn't make it perfectly clear.
    How do you know the definition of "perfect" constitutes to not being open to interpretation?

    What if I say the opposite?
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    (Original post by iceberger)
    It's easy to cherry pick verses from any form of text and portray them out of context.

    Without doubt the worst of creatures in Allah's sight are those who commit kufr (disbelief) and will therefore not have iman (belief). (8:55) - This verse was revealed in response to when the jewish banu qurayzah tribe of Madina had entered into a treaty with the muslims promising that they will not assist an enemy against the muslims, but they broke the treaty by assisting the hypocrites of Makkah to fight the muslims.
    The Quran is Allah's final and perfect guide for mankind. If it has stories that only apply to something that happened 1000 years ago then it is flawed.

    Regarding (5:33) it does state those punishments but the verses before are explaining the story of abel and cain and how cain murdered his brother. These punishments are as a deterrent. (5:32)
    It says that crucifixion is a punishment for spreading mischief. Either you think that it still applies which is a flaw because it is a barbaric punishment for a minor crime, or you think that it doesnt apply any more which is a flaw becuase it means that it isnt perfect.

    The verse before actually states: 'Whoever preserves a life, it is as if he preserved the lives of the entire mankind'
    The verse after states that certain people should be killed so it is contradictory so it is flawed.

    It's always best to read a whole paragraph or chapter to understand what the author is saying.
    So is the author saying that people guilty of spreading mischief can be crucified or not? You claim it is perfect so you must be able to give me a definite answer.
 
 
 
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