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    Wow, this thread is very racist
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    (Original post by guided1)
    1. Is there anything that you wouldn't be fine with or is anything ok as long as it comes from Allah.
    2. Harshness has nothing to do with justness. Even if you agree with death by torture, it isnt just to use it to punish a parking fine.
    3. Look up the definition of fasad. You will see that it isn't just what you say it is there are other things as well like disobeying Gods laws. You don't have to steal anything or torture or kill anyone to disobey Gods laws.
    1. 'The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination."'

    2. Who defines what is just? The Just (Allah) defines that.

    3. Of course Fasad is a general word for mischief, but in this verse it is used in conjuction with 'wage war against God and His messenger'. The meaning behind waging war against God and His messenger is to be found in the context behind revelation (this story).
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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    The first we must note is that this is a punishment reserved for brigands, cut throats, and highwaymen. In other words those who kill pillage and murder.
    Then we must also realise that these are options including banishment from the lands. Thirdly that the final say/choice of option would be down to the wali/emir.
    A smilar scenario today would be the fighters of isis when caught and tried under shariah.
    so this is only allowed under sharia? in a country with no sharia law, this punishment, in the eyes of a muslim, would be illegal?

    also, whats wali/ emir?
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    1. 'The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination."'

    2. Who defines what is just? The Just (Allah) defines that.

    3. Of course Fasad is a general word for mischief, but in this verse it is used in conjuction with 'wage war against God and His messenger'. The meaning behind waging war against God and His messenger is to be found in the context behind revelation (this story).
    who says that what Allah says is just? is it prophet Mohammed?
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    (Original post by cupcakes87)
    who says that what Allah says is just? is it prophet Mohammed?
    Logical deduction and faith in teachings:

    The creative entity which is the origin of all things must have been the Most Knowing and Most Wise in order for the universe to have come into existence due to there being nothingness before, but now there is everything and order.

    Therefore if this entity is the Most Knowing and Most wise over all things then it is in a better position to know what is just and what is not based upon this knowledge and wisdom.

    Secondly, if we have sufficient reason to believe this entity has communicated with its creation (which anyone of most religions believes), then we have a basis for accepting how this entity defines itself. If this entity defines itself as the Most Just, then we accept this just like how we trust judges to interpret the law based upon their knowledge, or scientists to create working models based upon their knowledge, or doctors to administer medicine based upon theirs.
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    (Original post by cupcakes87)
    so this is only allowed under sharia? in a country with no sharia law, this punishment, in the eyes of a muslim, would be illegal?

    also, whats wali/ emir?
    No one is allowed to take the laws in their own hands, and according to Shariah we have to follow the law of the land within which we reside (so long as we are not ordered to disobey God), therefore no one is allowed to carry out Islamic capital punishements.

    Wali/Emir is essentially the leader.
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    (Original post by guided1)
    If the most famous of all Islamic scholars says that fasad includes disobeying Gods laws then it isnt a consensus. Perhaps you are being selective and only saying part of the definition. Ibn Kathir mentions blocking roads and spreading fear but he also mentions disbelief and disobeying Gods law. Can you link to these scholars statements.
    I wonder which one of us is being selective
    a-someone using the consensus
    b-someone relying on one source twisted quoted out of context.

    Hadd al hirabah:
    -Tafsiir al tabari:
    قال بعضهم: نزلت فـي قوم من أهل الكتاب، كانوا أهل موادعة لرسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم، فنقضوا العهد وأفسدوا فـي الأرض، فعرّف الله نبـيه صلى الله عليه وسلم الـحكم فـيهم. ذكر من قال ذلك
    حدثنـي الـمثنى، قال: ثنا عمرو بن عون، قال: أخبرنا هشيـم، عن جويبر، عن الضحاك، قال: كان قوم بـينهم وبـين رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ميثاق، فنقضوا العهد وقطعوا السبـيـل وأفسدوا فـي الأرض فخير الله جلّ وعزّ نبـيه صلى الله عليه وسلم فـيهم، فإن شاء قتل، وإن شاء صلب، وإن شاء قطع أيديهم وأرجلهم من خلاف.

    It was revealed about a group of people who had treaties with the prophet pbuh who broke the treaties, killed and became highwaymen and spread fassad (killing pillaging, murdering..etc)
    ولـيست تَـحْرز هذه الآية الرجل الـمسلـم من الـحدّ إن قتل أو أفسد فـي الأرض أو حارب الله ورسوله
    This verse also applies to muslims who kill and spread fassad in the lands (killing, robbing, pillaging)

    حدثنـي مـحمد بن خـلف، قال: ثنا الـحسن بن هناد، عن عمرو بن هاشم، عن موسى بن عبـيد، عن مـحمد بن إبراهيـم، عن جرير، قال: قدم علـى النبـيّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قوم من عرينة حفـاة مضرورين، فأمر بهم رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فلـما صحُّوا واشتدوا قتلوا رعاء اللقاح، ثم خرجوا بـاللقاح عامدين بها إلـى أرض قومهم.
    Revealed about a group of people who came to the prophet sick and needy the prophet gave them and helped them till they recovered. They then killed shepherds and stole a herd of camels.
    ونزلت فـيهم آية الـمـحاربة
    And thus the verse of hirabah was revealed about them (the killers)

    A)واختلف أهل العلـم فـي الـمستـحقّ اسم الـمـحارب لله ورسوله الذي يـلزمه حكم هذه، فقال بعضهم: هو اللصّ الذي يقطع الطريق. ذكر من قال ذلك:
    And scholars differed on who can be described as the one who wages war (muharib). Some said it is the bandit or highwayman (any bandit or highwayman). Those who accepted this definition of muharib included:
    حدثنا الـحسن بن يحيى، قال: أخبرنا عبد الرزاق، قال: أخبرنا معمر، عن قتادة، و عطاء الـخراسانـي فـي قوله: { إنَّـما جَزَاءُ الَّذِينَ يُحارِبُونَ اللّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَيَسْعَوْنَ فِـي الأرْضِ فَساداً }... الآية، قالا: هذا هو اللصّ الذي يقطع الطريق، فهو مـحارب.
    Al-Hassan bin yahya who narrated from abdul razqq who narrated from mua'amar, from qatadah and from Ata'a al-Khurasanii in the tafseer of this verse. They all said that in verse the waging of war (one who wages war) is the robber who cuts the paths of travelers he is the one waging war

    B)وقال آخرون: هو اللصّ الـمـجاهر بلصوصيته، الـمكابر فـي الـمصر وغيره. ومـمن قال ذلك الأوزاعي
    وعن مالك واللـيث بن سعد وابن لهَيعة
    While others such as Al-Awzai'i said the verse is dealing with the robber/bandit who is open and adamant on continuing these actions.
    Imam Malik, Al-Laith bin sa'ad and Abdullah bin Lahi'ah also agreed with this definition

    حدثنـي علـيّ بن سهل، قال: ثنا الولـيد بن مسلـم، قال: قلت لـمالك بن أنس: تكون مـحاربة فـي الـمصر؟ قال: نعم، والـمـحارب عندنا من حمل السلاح علـى الـمسلـمين فـي مصر أو خلاء، فكان ذلك منه علـى غير نائرة كانت بـينهم ولا ذَحْل ولا عداوة، قاطعاً للسبـيـل والطريق والديار، مخيفـاً لهم بسلاحه، فقتْل أحداً منهم قتله الإمام كقتله الـمـحارب لـيس لولـيّ الـمقتول فـيه عفو ولا قَوَد.
    Al-Walid bin muslim said: I asked Malik bin Anas (imam malik) about hirabah/ banditry if it would if it would be counted as banditry if it happened in a city.
    To which Malik said ''Yes it is hirabah(waging war) even in a city, and the one waging war in our opinion is anyone who carries a weapon against us

    وأخبرنـي مالك أن قتل الغيـلة عنده بـمنزلة الـمـحاربة. قلت: وما قتل الغِيـلة؟ قال: هو الرجل يخدع الرجل والصبـيّ
    And Iman Malik also said that treacherous killing is hirabah, and I asked what is treacherous killing?
    He said it is the one where tricks his victims into a false sense of security then kills them.

    حدثنـي القاسم، قال:ثنا الـحسين، قال: ثنا حجاج، عن ابن جريج، عن مـجاهد فـي قوله: { إنَّـمَا جَزَاءُ الَّذِينَ يُحارِبُونَ اللّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَيَسْعَوْنَ فِـي الأرْضِ فَساداً قال: السرقة، وقتل الناس، وإهلاك الـحرث والنسل.
    And when asked about the verse imam Mujahid said, this fasaad is:
    banditry, killing the people, destruction of land and of progeny.


    قال: الـمـحارب لله ورسوله من حارب فـي سابلة الـمسلـمين وذمتهم، والـمغير علـيهم فـي أمصارهم وقراهم حَرَابة.
    Mujahid also said the one who wages war is the one who cuts on the muslims their roads and paths, kills those non muslims they protect, and the ones who raid their cities and villages.

    وإنـما قلنا ذلك أولـى الأقوال بـالصواب، لأنه لا خلاف بـين الـحجة أن من نصب حربـاَ للـمسلـمين علـى الظلـم منه لهم أنه لهم مـحارب، ولا خلاف فـيه. فـالذي وصفنا صفته، لا شك فـيه أنه لهم مناصب حربـاً ظلـماً. وإذ كان ذلك كذلك، فسواء كان نصبه الـحرب لهم فـي مصرهم وقراهم أو فـي سبلهم وطرقهم فـي أنه لله ولرسوله مـحارب بحربه من نهاه الله ورسوله عن حربه.
    And in our opinion (opinion of Tabari) this definition/understanding of waging war is the correct understanding. That the one waging war are those who fight the muslims and transgress against them wrongly, whether they attack a city or a village or cutting their paths, those are the ones waging war against God and his prophet.

    أما قوله: { وَيَسْعَوْنَ فِـي الأرْضِ فَساداً } فإنه يعنـي: ويعملون فـي أرض الله بـالـمعاصي من إخافة سبل عبـاده الـمؤمنـين به، أو سبل ذمتهم وقطع طرقهم، وأخذ أموالـم ظلـماً وعدوانا، والتوثُّب علـى جرَمهم فجوراً وفسوقاً.
    (tabari continues) And about spreading fasaad across the lands it means sinning across the lands by terrorising the people, highway banditry, robbing and taking the people's money and then continuing on their crimes.

    Tafsir Al-Zamashkhari:
    نزلت في قوم هلال بن عويمر وكان بينه وبين رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم عهد وقد مرّ بهم قوم يريدون رسول الله فقطعوا عليهم. وقيل: في العرنيين، فأوحى إليه أنّ من جمع بين القتل وأخذ المال قتل وصلب ومن أفرد القتل قتل.
    The verse was revealed about people who had treaties with the prophet but broke the treaties and turned to highway banditry. God has revealed this verse to be punishment for anyone who kills and partakes in banditry.

    Tafsiir Al-Razi
    اعلم أنه تعالى لما ذكر في الآية الأولى تغليظ الإثم في قتل النفس بغير قتل نفس ولا فساد في الأرض أتبعه ببيان أن الفساد في الأرض الذي يوجب القتل ما هو، فإن بعض ما يكون فساداً في الأرض لا يوجب قتل
    When in the previous verses God had mentioned the sanctity of life and the wrongfulness of taking a life except for those who spread fassad. It is here that Allah tells us and specifies for us the type of fassad that can result in taking the life of the perpetrator.
    (This fassad is the act of killing others and banditry, terrorising innocents..etc see above) For not all fasaads carried out is fassad that is deserving of this punishment

    المسألة الثالثة المحاربون المذكورون في هذه الآية هم القوم الذين يجتمعون وليهم منعة ممن أرادهم بسبب أنهم يحمي بعضهم بعضاً ويقصدون المسلمين في أرواحهم ودمائهم
    The third topic is about those who wage war being the groups of people who protect their group and attack the muslims seeking to spill their blood.

    Tafsiir Al Qurtubi:
    فالذي عليه الجمهور أنها نزلت في العُرَنيين
    The consensus is that the verse was revealed about bandits who killed and robbed.

    قول مالك صحيح، قال أبو ثور محتجاً لهذا القول: وفي الآية دليل على أنها نزلت في غير أهل الشرك
    And the opinion of Malik in this topic is highly accurate, and Abu thawr agreeing with this stated this verse is not about the disbelievers.

    وٱختلف العلماء فيمن يستحق ٱسم المحاربة؛ فقال مالك: المحارب عندنا من حمل على الناس في مصر أو في بَرِّيَّة وكابرهم عن أنفسهم وأموالهم دون نائرة ولا ذَحْل ولا عداوة؛ قال ٱبن المنذر: ٱختلف عن مالك في هذه المسئلة، فأثبت المحاربة في المِصْر مرةً ونفى ذلك مرة؛ وقالت طائفة: حكم ذلك في المصر أو في المنازل والطرق وديار أهل البادية والقرى سواء وحدودهم واحدة؛ وهذا قول الشافعي وأبي ثور؛ قال ٱبن المنذر: كذلك هو لأن كلا يقع عليه ٱسم المحاربة، والكتاب على العموم، وليس لأحد أن يُخْرِج من جملة الآية قوماً بغير حُجّة. وقالت طائفة: لا تكون المحاربة في المصر إنما تكون خارجاً عن المصر؛ هذا قول سُفيان الثَّوريّ وإسحاق والنعمان. والمغتال كالمحارب وهو الذي يحتال في قتل إنسان على أخذ ماله، وإن لم يُشْهر السّلاح لكن دخل عليه بيته أو صحبه في سفر فأطعمه سما فقتله فيقتل حدّاً لا قَوَداً.
    Basically the one waging war against god and prophet is the one who raids, kills, pillages and robs.

    قال علماؤنا: ويُناشَد اللص بالله تعالى، فإن كَفّ تُرِك وإن أَبَى قوتل
    And our scholars said that before we fight the bandits we call upon them to stop, but if they refuse we then fight them.

    Tafsiir Al Baydawi
    وأصل الحرب السلب والمراد به ههنا قطع الطريق. وقيل المكابرة باللصوصية وإن كانت في مصر
    And waging war in this verse means banditry and committing wanton robbery.

    Tafsiir Al Suyiti
    Verse revealed about bandits and deals with punishment for bandits

    ولكن لا يكون هذا حكم من فعل أيّ ذنب من الذنوب، بل من كان ذنبه هو التعدّي على دماء العباد وأموالهم فيما عدا ما قد ورد له حكم غير هذا الحكم في كتاب الله، أو سنة رسوله كالسرقة وما يجب فيه القصاص، لأنا نعلم أنه قد كان في زمنه صلى الله عليه وسلم من تقع منه ذنوب ومعاص غير ذلك، ولا يجرى عليه صلى الله عليه وسلم هذا الحكم
    Not all sins and fassads can be punished with this verse, nay the sin and fassad deserving of this punishment is the sin of spilling blood, pillaging and robbery.
    Outside of this all other sins/fasads have other rulings and topics mentioned elsewhere in the quran and hadith.
    And the prophet carried out this punishment for one particular from and not carried for other sins.

    قال ابن عباس وسعيد بن المسيب، ومجاهد وعطاء والحسن البصري، وإبراهيم النخعي والضحاك وأبو ثور: إن من شهر السلاح في قبة الإسلام، وأخاف السبيل
    Regarding who is waging war: Ibn Abbas, Sayeed bin Musayib, Mujaid, Ata'a, Hassan Al Basri, Ibrahim Al Nakhi'i, Imam Malik, Abu Hanifah, Ibn munthir, Al Dhahaak and Abu thowr all said the one waging war is the one who points his weapons towards the muslims and cuts the paths (highwayman/bandit)

    Ibn Kathir:
    Clearly you haven't read the tafsiir of ibn kathir and you might be regurgitating something fed to you without taking a deeper look into the topic.
    If anything all Ibn kathir does is to point out the forms of fassad, but he not mention anywhere, all fassad comes under this punishment.
    In fact if you continue to read the tafsiir he goes on to reveal the context of revelation (as has been mentioned several times here) and goes on for several pages to explain how this verse deals with punishment for banditry.
    So all you are doing is putting words and deductions into Ibn kathir that he does not even explicitly state.

    Tafsir Fayroz Abadi:
    وَيَسْعَوْنَ فِي ٱلأَرْضِ فَسَاداً يعملون في الأرض بالمعاصي وهو القتل وأخذ المال ظلماً
    And they spread mischief/fassad meaning spreading the sins of killing and wanton robbery.


    Tafsiir Al Bgawi:
    واختلفوا في المحاربين الذين يستحقون هذا الحد، فقال قوم: هم الذين يقطعون الطريق ويحملون السلاح، والمكابرون في الأمصار، وهو قول الأوزاعي ومالك والليث بن سعد والشافعي رحمهم الله. وقال قوم: هم المكابرون في الأمصار ليس لهم حكم المحاربين في استحقاق هذا الحد، وهو قول أبي حنيفة رضي الله عنه.
    Basically those waging war are bandits and highway robbers.

    Summery:
    This verse deals solely with one particular form of fassad. Not all forms of fassad are equal and not all forms of fassad come under this verse. Certainly not disbelief as history and the vast amount of evidence in this post alone prove this verse is exclusivly dealing with banditry and highway robbery.
    Who says this? Whose consensus is this?
    The above definition of fasaad and ''waging war'' is the consensus of the vast majority of scholars including:
    Imam Malik, Imam Ahmed bin hanbal, Imam Shafi'i, Abdullah Bin Abbas (ra), Al Tabari, Ata'a al-Khurasanii, Qatadah, Al-Awzai'i, Laith bin Sa'ad, Abdullah bin Lahi'ah, Al-Walid bin muslim, Mujahid, Ibn Jarih, Al Zamash'khari, Al Razi, Al Tabarani, Al Qurtubi, Al Baydawi, Al Suyuti, Sayeed bin Musayib, Ata'a, Hassan Al Basri, Ibrahim Al Nakhi'i, Abu Hanifah, Ibn munthir, Al Dhahaak, Even Ibn khathir whose words you try and twist.....ect and many many more all agree that the fassaaf/corruption spoken about here is the spilling of blood and robbery, murder..etc. And that the one waging war (spoken about in this verse) is the one killing people and banditry.

    This is only a small sample from what is universally accepted by muslims and scholars about hirabah and the exclusivity of this verse only dealing with hirabah.
    And we haven't even delved into the books of fiqh (islamic jurisprudence). Which could produce several threads worth of evidence showing the unanimous understanding of scholars with regards to this verse.

    I could wrap this huge post in a spoiler, but I know you will just ignore it and not read, and then still come back stubbornly with the same claim that has been dealt with.
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    (Original post by cupcakes87)
    so this is only allowed under sharia? in a country with no sharia law, this punishment, in the eyes of a muslim, would be illegal?

    also, whats wali/ emir?
    As Zam has said, the law of the land would apply. And certainly islam does not believe in or allow mob rule so no one can take the law into their hand. And certainly no one has the authority to take the law into their hand.
    Apologies I meant to say ruler/judge
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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    As Zam has said, the law of the land would apply. And certainly islam does not believe in or allow mob rule so no one can take the law into their hand. And certainly no one has the authority to take the law into their hand.
    Apologies I meant to say ruler/judge
    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    No one is allowed to take the laws in their own hands, and according to Shariah we have to follow the law of the land within which we reside (so long as we are not ordered to disobey God), therefore no one is allowed to carry out Islamic capital punishements. Wali/Emir is essentially the leader.

    I agree with you here. But what about ISIS ? Yes they used to be an insurgency and had no right to implement any laws. However afterwards they gained full control to cities and had the sunni tribal leaders plegde allegence to them. This means by "Islamic theory" they are allowed to start implementing sharia. ( Since they now had the resources and power to do it )

    I never fully understood why people said they were khawarij for implementing laws in the land.
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    (Original post by Miamcendoo)

    Islam is perfect, MUSLIMS are not.
    hahaha
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    (Original post by Bellex)
    So you said you denied the Qur'an al Kareem and the Messengers of Allah, but you didn't mention the same about Al-Qadr, the Angels and Allah. In order to believe the latter (from an Islamic p.o.v.) where would your source of knowledge come on these matters- which are all integral parts of the Qur'an and if not the Qur'an, then parts of hadith- on which, you are able to believe in these but disregard the above mentioned two? If you pertain to the belief of the latter, and you have derived your conclusions from your pre-existent knowledge sourced from the Qur'an, how do you disbelieve in the Qur'an?
    Just wondering!
    The concepts of Tawheed (Monotheism), Predetermination ( Qadr ), and the possibility of "an unseen" existance predates Islam. These concepts are not exclusive to Islam alone.

    Also, I was curious on your view of the adhan- if possible, could you report back your thoughts/feelings upon listening to the adhan at this current point?
    If I had no feeling/ thoughts, what difference does it make ?

    Lastly, I wanted to know your opinion of the following book- "The Spectacle of Death" by Khawaja Muhammad Islam, (if you have ever read it or ever plan to read it.)

    Thanks.
    Never heard of Khawaja Muhammad so I would never read it.
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    Well done this is something to be proud of and despite what some say you do deserve a medal for this

    Peace
    • Thread Starter
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    (Original post by Radicalathiest)
    Seems this forum has more snowflakes than the alps or is run by mods who are to the right of Isis

    So I'll try again

    Well done this is something to be proud of and despite what some say you do deserve a medal for this

    Peace
    Did they remove your post ?
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    (Original post by javedkid123)
    Did they remove your post ?
    Yep......
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    My honest opinion without any bias:

    Spoiler:
    Show

    It doesn't really matter what made you become an atheist in the first place (the whole Imam thing you mentioned), but the reason why you are now staying an atheist which is the most important thing. As long as you use reasonable thought, you are open minded to the truth, and you think for yourself - you have made the right choice.

    Questions:

    What is your method on deciding to believe in something?

    Are you an agnostic atheist (lack of belief in god, but accepting that it cannot be known) or a full-on, hard atheist (disbelief in god and unacceptance of the possibility of a god)?

    How has it changed your outlook on other things so far? When I became atheist, so many things made sense and I began to gain an understanding on why so many things happen.
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    EDIT: Accidental double post, woops.
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    (Original post by Miamcendoo)
    Islam is perfect, MUSLIMS are not
    Muslims are just normal people, but Islam is a very imperfect religion, which has a strong negative impact on societies
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    (Original post by nmudz_009)
    That is a pile of horse ****
    Spoken like a true indoctrinated, submissive.
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    (Original post by emerald7770)
    I'm just wondering why you think it's necessary to make a thread and say "ama". And when someone asked what made you leave, I was thinking "this should be good" but you say that an imaam was teaching a bunch of kids about killing homosexuals. Imaams aren't god, for gods sake. They are just like us, and this imaam was giving his own rubbish opinion. Islam doesn't teach that and you know it. You really need to start being wise about this.
    And yet far too many Muslims believe it...
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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    As Zam has said, the law of the land would apply. And certainly islam does not believe in or allow mob rule so no one can take the law into their hand. And certainly no one has the authority to take the law into their hand.
    Apologies I meant to say ruler/judge
    Say that to all the people butchered by the hands of an Islamic mob.
 
 
 
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