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Sydney university offer male only scholarship feminists are upset Watch

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    (Original post by Twinpeaks)
    By eliminating those factors you are taking away the explanatory factor. The question is why do men dominate higher earning fields, why do men progress more within a career, demand a higher salary etc.

    But that's besides the point.

    Most importantly, Dandaman1 I'd really appreciate it if you could point out all those female only scholarships you claim to exist? Might be just the thing I'm looking for
    The higher earning fields are dominated by the older generation which still reflects the more segregated gender roles of the 20th century. However, to reach these positions it also takes a lot of hours, continuous years of experience and hard work. Women tend to have these things called babies which take them away from their work, often for years (consequently their partners take on more hours to compensate). Women opt to work less hours on average, are more likely to switch careers, and spend more time at home. But they are not forced to do this.

    There's also the fact fewer women enter STEM and business fields in higher education. This disparity still exists in countries like Sweden which make efforts to avoid 'gendering' the subjects for children.

    There's the so-called "boys' club" argument, but that didn't stop women taking over once male-dominated subjects like biology, veterinary science and psychology. Women are obviously capable of doing what they want.

    As for the women's scholarships, see post #86. Good bloke beat me to it. And there are plenty more where that came from. Google is your friend.
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    (Original post by CookieButter)
    Yes ma’am and your replies are testament to this.



    aha….and how is the issue of feminists protesting a male scholarship related to the pay gap?



    I didn’t make this claim and I am not sure that anyone else did either.



    I went through great pains to find the study on which this article is based (attached at the end of this comment below the diagram).

    I found it to be suffering from the same problem as your other example. It is written by two feminists. It suffers from a great deal of researcher bias and it sets out to prove a forgone conclusion. It is research of laughable quality.

    The aim of the study was to prove causation (that the pay gap in medicine is caused by sexism against women) but it failed to do that. In fact it proved the opposite. It proved that the majority of the pay gap in medicine IS NOT CAUSED BY DISCRIMINATION. A small portion of the pay gap could not be explained by the study and they conclude that this unexplained portion could be caused by discrimination, which is a laughable conclusion since they could not provide evidence in their study to that affect. Furthermore, the study uses an extremely unreliable research method…i.e. surveys. It asks doctors their opinions about their salaries and their experience and whether or not they are discriminated against. The entire study is based on opinions. Opinions are the lowest form of research/evidence (refer to the digram attached below for the hierarchy of research).
    Attachment 619804619806



    This study by the ONS does not prove causation. It shows that there is a gap using unreliable methods but does not prove that this gap is caused by discrimination. All the study shows is that there is a pay gap. That is all. The pay gap that they have shown could be caused by anything. You cannot use it as evidence for your claim that women are being discriminated against in pay.



    I will tag you when and if I make that thread. I won’t mention you but you might find it interesting.
    I thought my replies were good. If you want to debate properly you shouldn't personally insult people's intelligence.

    I'll have you know I am going to university this year to study criminal just- I mean history.

    Everyone attacked me for saying that men were paid more than women implying that scholarships for women made sense. They continued the conversation and then complained when I didn't reply to everybody.

    They used it as an example in saying women do pointless degrees. :cookie: But many people don't do jobs in their university degree area even with degrees in law ( example of a well regarded degree in many people's eyes ).

    Yeah I appreciated the work you put into finding statistics that's why I reply.

    Can you tell me how to prove discrimination? As if a company will say "yeah we discriminated" they'll give any other excuse to say it isn't. That's why there is a struggle to find the truth or to improve the outcome gap because amy people lie.
    It's why the equality act doesn't always work because how do you prove discrimination? It's almost impossible unless someone doesn't let you in somewhere because you're in a wheelchair or something like that. So the debate will never end.

    They asked other people questions, the authors didn't answer them so it shouldn't be so biased.

    And that's okay then.
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    (Original post by Shadow Hunters)
    Can you tell me how to prove discrimination? As if a company will say "yeah we discriminated" they'll give any other excuse to say it isn't. That's why there is a struggle to find the truth or to improve the outcome gap because amy people lie.
    It's why the equality act doesn't always work because how do you prove discrimination? It's almost impossible unless someone doesn't let you in somewhere because you're in a wheelchair or something like that. So the debate will never end.
    That is a ridiculous assertion. Countless cases of discrimination have been and continue to be proved in courts and tribunals. You prove discrimination on the facts of any particular case, with reference to what the law says.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    That is a ridiculous assertion. Countless cases of discrimination have been and continue to be proved in courts and tribunals. You prove discrimination on the facts of any particular case, with reference to what the law says.
    No, proving discrimination in this particular case is not because many people don't like to tell people their pay and don't ask other people about theirs either so nobody finds out if they're being discriminated against.
    If someone thinks "this is a good salary" they probably don't ask if others are being paid more. Then people get away with it, especially in the private sector.
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    (Original post by Shadow Hunters)
    No, proving discrimination in this particular case is not because many people don't like to tell people their pay and don't ask other people about theirs either so nobody finds out if they're being discriminated against.
    If someone thinks "this is a good salary" they probably don't ask if others are being paid more. Then people get away with it, especially in the private sector.
    Then why should they be paid anymore? Your time is worth whatever you deem it to be worth so if someone has satisfied that why do they need to pay you more simply because someone else feels their time is worth more?


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    (Original post by minimarshmallow)
    Why is it logical to assume that? The thread is about Sydney, so maybe we should be talking about Australia. The US is usually where the stats are in the most abundance and where I remember seeing a lot of the stats but I'll see what I can find for the UK if you insist - but that wasn't my point.

    I am acknowledging it. I'm giving a reason for it, and showing you that feminism is trying to combat that discrimination against men by wanting to dismantle patriarchy.
    The thread is about a university scholarship, I think it's safe to say we're quite a long way from the OP. Well please feel free to clarify your point rather than repeating 'that wasn't my point"

    I wondered how long it would be until you used the magic 'p' word. If all else fails blame it on the patriarchy aye


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    (Original post by Underscore__)
    The thread is about a university scholarship, I think it's safe to say we're quite a long way from the OP. Well please feel free to clarify your point rather than repeating 'that wasn't my point"

    I wondered how long it would be until you used the magic 'p' word. If all else fails blame it on the patriarchy aye


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    My point applies to developed countries, the stats I still haven't had a second at home to find (super busy yesterday so back to break at work) are from the US.

    Patriarchy has been what I've been rallying against for the whole thread, and indeed since I learned about it. After all, it causes so many of our problems, and feminism wishes to dismantle it.
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    (Original post by minimarshmallow)
    , it causes so many of our problems, and feminism wishes to dismantle it.
    Why, I wonder, does feminism avoid issues that should be easy wins? The Roman Catholic church does not allow females to be priests. There are no Moslem imams. Islamic rules make second class citizens of women. Jewish and Moslem women cannot worship with men. The barbaric practice of FGM is prevalent in many communities.

    Yet you rail against women suffering the obvious and foreseeable consequences of freely making their own choices in life. What could be more ridiculous?
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    (Original post by minimarshmallow)
    My point applies to developed countries, the stats I still haven't had a second at home to find (super busy yesterday so back to break at work) are from the US.

    Patriarchy has been what I've been rallying against for the whole thread, and indeed since I learned about it. After all, it causes so many of our problems, and feminism wishes to dismantle it.
    You can't say that because those stats may be accurate in the US that they are also applicable across all developed western countries.

    Patriarchy is a thing of the past, although I'm really not fan Milo Yiannopoulos was right when he said hag western white women are the most privileged group in society


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    (Original post by minimarshmallow)
    I struggle with evolutionary explanations, there are always more than one explanation and no way to say which one is correct - men would also want to protect their offspring if they could, they may impregnate many women, but with living not being the cushy thing it is now back in the times of our evolution, would the pregnant woman left on her own be safe during birth etc.?

    Hormones, you think. Which hormones? Doing what?

    It may well be hormones have an effect on career choice (although I'm struggling to see exactly how), but unless we can show how each of these hormones works like that, and also divorce that from the societal pressure for men and women to behave in certain ways, I remain unconvinced.
    Evolutonarily, men probably gambled on the women looking after "their" children, but also knew that by a man settling down with a woman, versus man who impregnates multiple woman, (at least one of) the children of the second man has a better chance of survival. Good question about pairing up I suppose, I've no idea.

    Oxytocin is probably the big one, released during birth.

    I'd be interested to see comparisons between genetics v environment for women adopting the more caring roles in work. Perhaps it really does hark back to boys playing with action men and women with dolls. Stories teaching girls that they'll be saved by a handsome prince one day. I think there's hormonal reasons why women care more, and why men are more aggressive/competitive. Thus I figure that has some influence on which jobs people choose, regardless of environment.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    This is precisely what happens when you lock people up in a safe space for too long. They lose the ability to react reasonably to something they disagree with, become more susceptible to brainwashing and develop physical tics, sometimes as extreme as cringing, when faced with opposition.

    I still haven't heard any rebuttal to the primary point, originally made by TimmonaPortella, that any remaining gap in pay between men and women is primarily caused by individuals' career and lifestyle choices, freely made.
    The big problem with safe spaces is that since they only select certain opinions, they become echo chambers of agreement, each time more assured in their opinion, because no one is there to contradict them.
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    (Original post by Shadow Hunters)
    I thought my replies were good. If you want to debate properly you shouldn't personally insult people's intelligence.

    I'll have you know I am going to university this year to study criminal just- I mean history.

    Everyone attacked me for saying that men were paid more than women implying that scholarships for women made sense. They continued the conversation and then complained when I didn't reply to everybody.

    They used it as an example in saying women do pointless degrees. :cookie: But many people don't do jobs in their university degree area even with degrees in law ( example of a well regarded degree in many people's eyes ).

    Yeah I appreciated the work you put into finding statistics that's why I reply.

    Can you tell me how to prove discrimination? As if a company will say "yeah we discriminated" they'll give any other excuse to say it isn't. That's why there is a struggle to find the truth or to improve the outcome gap because amy people lie.
    It's why the equality act doesn't always work because how do you prove discrimination? It's almost impossible unless someone doesn't let you in somewhere because you're in a wheelchair or something like that. So the debate will never end.

    They asked other people questions, the authors didn't answer them so it shouldn't be so biased.

    And that's okay then.
    I always got confused by the analogy of two people going for the same job but it will more often go to the white guy. Some people complain that had they been white and/or male they would have got said job, yet they assume this without knowing the other peoples credentials.
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    (Original post by Shadow Hunters)
    In other words, it's pretty much accepted by everyone there is a gender pay gap.
    No it's not. Sort yourself out girl, get out of that gender studies/sociology indoctrination degree, and do something good with your life. Don't fall for the postmodernism, it will suck the potential out of you.

    I believe in you.
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    (Original post by That Bearded Man)
    I think there's hormonal reasons why women care more, and why men are more aggressive/competitive. Thus I figure that has some influence on which jobs people choose, regardless of environment.
    Yep - I'll buy that. But why is it that jobs that involve caring are always so underpaid? And yet jobs that involve gambling other people's money pay so well? I find it so sad that if you are born a girl, statistically, you are going to earn around 10-15% less than if you happen to be born a man. That just isn't right, regardless of hormones.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    Yep - I'll buy that. But why is it that jobs that involve caring are always so underpaid? And yet jobs that involve gambling other people's money pay so well? I find it so sad that if you are born a girl, statistically, you are going to earn around 10-15% less than if you happen to be born a man. That just isn't right, regardless of hormones.
    Maybe they should go into different jobs then? When you are told you take x job you get 85,000 or y job you get 100,000 then choosing to take x job is your choice not the fault of others.
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    Maybe they should go into different jobs then? When you are told you take x job you get 85,000 or y job you get 100,000 then choosing to take x job is your choice not the fault of others.
    Maybe it is more complex than that? And who is they? The cats' mothers?
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    Yep - I'll buy that. But why is it that jobs that involve caring are always so underpaid? And yet jobs that involve gambling other people's money pay so well? I find it so sad that if you are born a girl, statistically, you are going to earn around 10-15% less than if you happen to be born a man. That just isn't right, regardless of hormones.
    You're not though, you still get to choose your own career. Working in the healthcare setting myself I take the point RE being underpaid, the simple fact is that we're prepared to work harder for less because we care, rather than financial whizz kids who to them they're just dots on a screen. I'm sure I'd hate working in those environments anyway, and I'd much rather do a job I enjoy anyway, rather sleep at night knowing you'd make a difference than realise you've gambled away someone's pension funds or business and escaped scot free.
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