Nationalism is an infantile disease. It's the measles of humanity Watch

Vesniep
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That is a quote from Albert Einstein from his book 'The world as I see it'.
He supported the idea of Federal Europe as a building block that would finally become United Nations ; a secular, scientific federation based on liberal western values. The world would become more and more tolerant, rational instead of dogmatic, better educated, concerned about humanity as a whole and willing to solve problems that threaten our very existence (climate change, poverty due to limited resources).
Something went wrong, western countries are becoming more and more nationalistic, climate change is ignored, the European union is about to dissolve, the UN and NATO weaken.
I know my analysis is not very rigorous, I know the EU has flaws, I know that global warming policies damage trade, but what I also observe is that many people are not only against the flaws of those organisations, they're against the existence of those organisations.
It's not just that the EU has terrible policies for fishing industry (you could negotiate ), but that people dislike the idea of a united Europe in general.
Protectionism, self interest and short term thinking (mostly ignoring climate change) prevail instead of Einstein's ... utopia.
What is your opinion on that topic?
Do you think the new world order would help the West in the long term?
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Casisalive
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The world will end one day, why not just let the reason be the greed of man
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Cato the Elder
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(Original post by Vesniep)
That is a quote from Albert Einstein from his book 'The world as I see it'.
He supported the idea of Federal Europe as a building block that would finally become United Nations ; a secular, scientific federation based on liberal western values. The world would become more and more tolerant, rational instead of dogmatic, better educated, concerned about humanity as a whole and willing to solve problems that threaten our very existence (climate change, poverty due to limited resources).
Something went wrong, western countries are becoming more and more nationalistic, climate change is ignored, the European union is about to dissolve, the UN and NATO weaken.
I know my analysis is not very rigorous, I know the EU has flaws, I know that global warming policies damage trade, but what I also observe is that many people are not only against the flaws of those organisations, they're against the existence of those organisations.
It's not just that the EU has terrible policies for fishing industry (you could negotiate ), but that people dislike the idea of a united Europe in general.
Protectionism, self interest and short term thinking (mostly ignoring climate change) prevail instead of Einstein's ... utopia.
What is your opinion on that topic?
Do you think the new world order would help the West in the long term?
The idea of a federal, liberal Europe is a utopian dream. I would only support the existence of such a body if it preserved Western civilisation and encouraged imperialism, and if it was led by a man of genius, and was centred around a new religion, since rationalism is absurd.
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Vesniep
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(Original post by Casisalive)
The world will end one day, why not just let the reason be the greed of man
It doesn't have to end. Humans can live forever.... if they want.
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Vesniep
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(Original post by Cato the Elder)
The idea of a federal, liberal Europe is a utopian dream. I would only support the existence of such a body if it preserved Western civilisation and encouraged imperialism, and if it was led by a man of genius, and was centred around a new religion, since rationalism is absurd.
The goal of the Federal Europe as I see it is to form other countries in their image.
It doesn't have to be violent or quick. It achieves the same results.
The only difference is instead of Europe it's called UN; I agree that the values of UN should be the same as Europe's though should remain the same without any influence from eg Middle East values.
I disagree about your last point on a new religion. Please explain the possible benefits of that, it's interesting
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Casisalive
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(Original post by Vesniep)
It doesn't have to end. Humans can live forever.... if they want.
Even if we relocate to a new planet, there will be a handful of people on it compared to our current population, and seeing as we can only go to planets that are relatively close our chances dont look too good seeing as our sun will die one day too. And one day maybe the whole universe will die too, hell we dont even know what shape it is yet let alone our fate.
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MachinesCradle
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Let's keep to quoting Einstein only on physics. When in a small group of highly intelligent academicians one can easily be fooled into thinking that everybody should be able to get along. However races differ in terms of biology, culture and history and one only needs to look at countries like Papua New Guinea and South Africa to see that a high ethnic fractionalisation index is destabilising. People will act in interest of their groups and not for the good of the nation.
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Cato the Elder
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(Original post by Vesniep)
The goal of the Federal Europe as I see it is to form other countries in their image.
It doesn't have to be violent or quick. It achieves the same results.
The only difference is instead of Europe it's called UN; I agree that the values of UN should be the same as Europe's though should remain the same without any influence from eg Middle East values.
I disagree about your last point on a new religion. Please explain the possible benefits of that, it's interesting
Human beings are not rational and must have something to cling to, something for which they are willing to fight and die. We must be as willing to fight and die for our beliefs as Muslims are willing to fight and die for theirs. Hence the necessity of a new religion, which will encourage heroic values and conquest. Rationalism and science won't give us that. It will take all the magic and splendour and meaning out of life.
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Vesniep
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(Original post by Casisalive)
Even if we relocate to a new planet, there will be a handful of people on it compared to our current population, and seeing as we can only go to planets that are relatively close our chances dont look too good seeing as our sun will die one day too. And one day maybe the whole universe will die too, hell we dont even know what shape it is yet let alone our fate.
Protect Earth for 1000 years more, while you invest 10% of global GDP on science and technology (instead of 2.7 %)
1000 years for science and technology with that amount of funding.... space exploration becomes much easier that way.
It's even theoretically possible to travel to another universe.
The only limitations for mankind are the physical ones.
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Mair18919
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Einstein was also a Zionist, which sits a little uneasily with his desire to destroy the nation states of Europe and its ethnic diversity,

If Jewish culture is worth preserving then so are the many and various identities of Europes nations.
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3121
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Nationalism isn't the answer!
Nationalisation is the answer!!
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Vesniep
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(Original post by Cato the Elder)
Human beings are not rational and must have something to cling to, something for which they are willing to fight and die. We must be as willing to fight and die for our beliefs as Muslims are willing to fight and die for theirs. Hence the necessity of a new religion, which will encourage heroic values and conquest. Rationalism and science won't give us that. It will take all the magic and splendour and meaning out of life.
And that's why religion and the concept of a nation worked for so long.
However religion can contradict the liberal values.
It really depends on what type of religion you're talking about.
Spinoza's god would theoretically perfectly match the european values.
But still it lacks the irrational component
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Casisalive
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(Original post by Vesniep)
Protect Earth for 1000 years more, while you invest 10% of global GDP on science and technology (instead of 2.7 %)
1000 years for science and technology with that amount of funding.... space exploration becomes much easier that way.
It's even theoretically possible to travel to another universe.
The only limitations for mankind are the physical ones.
It is very unrealistic. At best it might be possible if we discover entirely new laws of physics that completely change the rules on what is possible and what isn't. But hey what do we know, we might just be ants in a backyard to a super intelligent race of aliens. "nothing exists but the individual’s consciousness"
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Vesniep
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(Original post by zayn008)
Nationalism isn't the answer!
Nationalisation is the answer!!
Explain why ?
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ChargingStag
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I agree with Nationalism personally. It is unfortunate that certain things are the way they are in the world, such as poor countries being poor and there being countries better off than them. But if we are not nationalistic - if we throw open our borders and our countries for all those who want to come (necessary for the EU of course) then what is going to happen? People from poor places will pour in to the rich place (I mean who wouldn't?) and it would throw both countries into chaos as the poorer country loses citizens and the rich country gains too many, not to mention it throwing economies askew.

It's nice feelgood thought of a borderless world where everyone can hold hands and get along together, but until you are willing to give up your wealth, to give up your job, to give up your home - then it can only be a feelgood thought.

I think it's quite funny that you have a reasonable argument in your thread but title it something so silly by the way.
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STEMisSuperior.
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Nationalism is a basic irrational feeling that has been the underlying and fundamental assumption for a lot of what's been happening (namely Brexit and Trump).

"Whilst all available research and studies show that Brexit won't be great, we will get our sovereignty back"

"Whilst Trump is a hypocrite who thus far has been a disaster, he will make America great again"
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Count Bezukhov
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I broadly agree with the principle of a united world, but again this is only in theory. In practise, it isn't that simple. Cultures inevitably clash. Religion sows division and spreads its dogma in opposition to those outside the group. Until we have a globally-recognised system of values, like equal rights for women, ethnic minorities, homosexuals (et al), clashes will inevitably form here.

I think a Federal Europe could work and could in fact be very successful, because the continent broadly shares the same values, the same history, and distinct but interlinked cultures that have developed side-by-side over the preceding centuries. A few differences need to be ironed out, and the system needs to be reformed, but as a long-term objective Europe can be a success.

However, places like the Middle East, Africa and others - hosting rampant religious zealotism and corruption - are a LONG way off from this stage, and if they do not change then the differences between their societies and western societies are unreconcilable insofar as some version of world federalism is concerned.

Cato the Elder poses one solution to this, which is western domination. Alternatively, we could just seek closer relations amongst similar states (Europe, USA, etc), and leave the rest of the world to its own devices (insofar as our own interests are secured), and instead focus on our own development by broadly pursuing enlightenment values. Alternatively to this, we could attempt to reform these societies through soft power, like trade and diplomacy, and hope that they become more similar to us (China embracing capitalism is one example of where this could succeed in the mid-long term). This is broadly the option that is being pursued by current governments, and I think we should at least try. If it fails, then I'd opt for my other suggestion, rather than Cato's, unless imperialism was absolutely necessary for our vital interests (and even then, it must be conducted humanely).

Even if the system of values is standardised globally, there is the problem of cultural clash. If cultural practises are largely kept as a private matter, then this shouldn't be too much of an issue, but obviously people simply prefer to live with people similar to themselves.
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Vesniep
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(Original post by Casisalive)
It is very unrealistic. At best it might be possible if we discover entirely new laws of physics that completely change the rules on what is possible and what isn't. But hey what do we know, we might just be ants in a backyard to a super intelligent race of aliens. "nothing exists but the individual’s consciousness"
This
Well that's just speculation, we really don't know.
Anyhow in every case it's a more glorious death for humanity than merely lack of communication and greed.
I really don't like thinking about these question because it doesn't give any meaning.
As Camus said The meaning of life is everything that prevents you from killing yourself
My answer as to why we should want our survival remains dogmatic; Because we have to. You have to be numb to such questions.
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Cato the Elder
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(Original post by STEMisSuperior.)
Nationalism is a basic irrational feeling that has been the underlying and fundamental assumption for a lot of what's been happening (namely Brexit and Trump).

"Whilst all available research and studies show that Brexit won't be great, we will get our sovereignty back"

"Whilst Trump is a hypocrite who thus far has been a disaster, he will make America great again"
The good thing about nationalism is that it gives people something to fight for. Few people will fight and die for a borderless liberal utopia in which their individuality will be swamped by the concerns of billions of others. There is a greater gravitational pull from what is local to an individual than what is abstract and intangible. I do not feel that I am a citizen of the world because "the world" does not have the meaning for me that Britain or the West does.

Science is great, but it also deadens things, giving what should be awe-inspiring names and classifications which make it detached from us emotionally.
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Casisalive
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(Original post by Vesniep)
This
Well that's just speculation, we really don't know.
Anyhow in every case it's a more glorious death for humanity than merely lack of communication and greed.
I really don't like thinking about these question because it doesn't give any meaning.
As Camus said The meaning of life is everything that prevents you from killing yourself
My answer as to why we should want our survival remains dogmatic; Because we have to. You have to be numb to such questions.
Well put, camus said it perfectly "I don’t know
whether this world has a meaning that transcends it. But I know
that I do not know that meaning and that it is impossible for me
just now to know it. What can a meaning outside my condition
mean to me? I can understand only in human terms."

Nice talking to someone who is aware.
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