The British Justice system is a pathetic joke

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ByEeek
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#21
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#21
(Original post by Davij038)
Pretty much my entire family are teachers. The thing that kids need is structure and order. It depends what sanctions are put in place as to whether they’re effective. I don’t advocate for bringing back the cane, but some schools need excessive discipline especially in schools like in London- for obvious reasons.,
But that is not actually true. Education in inner city London is better now than it has ever been. I think you are still back in the 90s. A lot has changed since then.

As for death row. In the US it is a farce. The majority on death row are black and many have since been proved to be innocent but are still put to death. I am sorry, but I don't want to live in that sort of society. Something that does work is giving offenders an opportunity to step back into life. Sadly though the prejudice against former offenders is so complete that many have little choice but to return to a life of crime as there are no legal avenues for them to walk.
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Prasiortle
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#22
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#22
(Original post by Davij038)
The state will always make mistakes in every field, so by your logic shouldn’t exist?

In any case, you’re treating the state as an individual, which it isn’t. Your argument doesn’t regally make sense unless you’re coming from an anarchist perspective.

Besides, I think there are cases when the evidence is simply incontrovertible such as Lee Rigbys killer
Yes, the state makes mistakes, but my point was that if the state specifically kills an innocent person, and one already holds the belief that "anyone who kills an innocent person should receive the death penalty", then the combination of those two premises means that the state will necessarily need to receive the death penalty. Also in this aspect there is no reason to treat the state in a different class as an individual: indeed, I would suggest that it should be treated more harshly than an individual would be, as it has greater power and thus a greater responsibility to act properly.
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Davij038
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#23
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#23
(Original post by Prasiortle)
Yes, the state makes mistakes, but my point was that if the state specifically kills an innocent person, and one already holds the belief that "anyone who kills an innocent person should receive the death penalty", then the combination of those two premises means that the state will necessarily need to receive the death penalty.
No, that’s some really bizarre logic.

In any case

1: The state isn’t wilfully targeting innocent people in the way of a common criminal. Some people notably the nihilistic far left don’t believe that motivations matter - but we can argue about that if you wish to make that point.

2: The state will inevitably find itself in what Schmitt would call the state of exception where due to the state needing to survive in an anarchical world order will find itself doing ‘illegal’ things, but unlike individuals has the legal authority to enact this.

3: In war, innocent civilians die all the time

Also in this aspect there is no reason to treat the state in a different class as an individual.
Why?

Whilst as a realist I do think that states are rational actors, as per above they should not be treated as people.

Basically Machiavelli was right.
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emufeet
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#24
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#24
(Original post by Davij038)
The state will always make mistakes in every field, so by your logic shouldn’t exist?
Why would you question this part of his/her argument when this was not the point he was making? His point was clearly that innocent people can, and do end up being wrongfully killed by the death penalty which he/she has cited with statistics.
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Prasiortle
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#25
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#25
(Original post by Davij038)
No, that’s some really bizarre logic.

In any case

1: The state isn’t wilfully targeting innocent people in the way of a common criminal. Some people notably the nihilistic far left don’t believe that motivations matter - but we can argue about that if you wish to make that point.

2: The state will inevitably find itself in what Schmitt would call the state of exception where due to the state needing to survive in an anarchical world order will find itself doing ‘illegal’ things, but unlike individuals has the legal authority to enact this.

3: In war, innocent civilians die all the time



Why?

Whilst as a realist I do think that states are rational actors, as per above they should not be treated as people.

Basically Machiavelli was right.
Whether killing is wilful or not it is at least manslaughter.

Moreover I object to the idea that the state can use violence which its citizens cannot, due to some purported legal authority. Indeed, as you put it, it is tantamount to the state being at war with the citizens.
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Davij038
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#26
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#26
(Original post by Prasiortle)
Indeed, as you put it, it is tantamount to the state being at war with the citizens.
It sort of is, basically I think that Hobbes was right
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Prasiortle
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#27
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#27
(Original post by Davij038)
It sort of is, basically I think that Hobbes was right
And so if you, as a citizen, wish the state to be at war with you, you should simply go and kill yourself, as that will be the end result.
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Davij038
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#28
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#28
(Original post by Prasiortle)
And so if you, as a citizen, wish the state to be at war with you, you should simply go and kill yourself, as that will be the end result.
Sigh, you haven’t read Hobbes have you?

TLDR- the state isn’t at war with you but takes away some of our ‘freedoms’ (such as killing ourselves) in order to live in a civilised society. As bad as this can be at times it is ultimately far better than the alternative ‘state of nature’.
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Davij038
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#29
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#29
(Original post by emufeet)
Why would you question this part of his/her argument when this was not the point he was making? His point was clearly that innocent people can, and do end up being wrongfully killed by the death penalty which he/she has cited with statistics.
He said that the fact that states makes mistakes in delivering capital punishment in a minority of cases (which I readily acknowledge) meant that it shouldn’t be done.

The point I made was that the same could be said of anything the state is involved in. Ultimately it’s a technical argument, and seems to mme to concede that capital punishment is right but only with a 100% success rate- which no policy could ever match. We may as well scrap the police because a minority of people are falsely imprisoned/ arrested
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Prasiortle
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#30
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#30
(Original post by Davij038)
He said that the fact that states makes mistakes in delivering capital punishment in a minority of cases (which I readily acknowledge) meant that it shouldn’t be done.

The point I made was that the same could be said of anything the state is involved in. Ultimately it’s a technical argument, and seems to mme to concede that capital punishment is right but only with a 100% success rate- which no policy could ever match. We may as well scrap the police because a minority of people are falsely imprisoned/ arrested
No, the same argument means that since falsely imprisoning people is a crime that should result in arrest, and some police officers falsely arrest people, those police officers should be arrested and brought to justice, which is what the system generally attempts to do.
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04MR17
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#31
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#31
I'm sure Vitiate will have some thoughts on this.
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SaucissonSecCy
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#32
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#32
Yes, I've said similar over acid attacks, it's amazing what an unjust, sick, 'liberal' sociopaths dream this country is.
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wisetek
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#33
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#33
What about on the other side, cuts in legal aid, evidence been with held and people been wrongly put in prison?Bit one sided to knock all sentences up, the whole system needs looking at, as you say people who are used to system and make lawyers money or who are rich get away with murder! Now it's mostly the rich!But people on legal aid are now been represented thanks to cut backs by lawyers who get one payment at begining meaning it doesn't pay them to try and defend some one properly, or to any extent! Get them to plead guilty even if they are innocent, easier makes law firms more money.So yes I do agree but you sound like you have had no personal experience of how rubbish the whole system is! Unless of course you have money, just do what you want!
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04MR17
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#34
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#34
(Original post by wisetek)
What about on the other side, cuts in legal aid, evidence been with held and people been wrongly put in prison?Bit one sided to knock all sentences up, the whole system needs looking at, as you say people who are used to system and make lawyers money or who are rich get away with murder! Now it's mostly the rich!But people on legal aid are now been represented thanks to cut backs by lawyers who get one payment at begining meaning it doesn't pay them to try and defend some one properly, or to any extent! Get them to plead guilty even if they are innocent, easier makes law firms more money.So yes I do agree but you sound like you have had no personal experience of how rubbish the whole system is! Unless of course you have money, just do what you want!
Hiya, since this thread is over 2 years old I'm going to close it now, but if you wish to start a new discussion on this topic feel free to click here:
https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/new...newthread&f=60
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