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    (Original post by Made in the USA)
    One of the reasons why is dropping may be, as surprising as it seems, because of some ads that are running on television regarding his service. Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is a group of Vietnam War veterans that have released three ads questioning John Kerry’s war record. They have been condemning his anti-war testimony to Congress when he returned home from Vietnam more than 30 years ago. Veterans who served with him get a pass when they call him a fraud. That's an accusation that people who aren't veterans, having not served, could never get away with making.
    I find those adverts hilarious - they state one thing with the purpose of questioning another. Only a complete fool could fall for them (sadly the majority of the electorate in any country is made up of complete fools.) They question Kerrys 'war record', which is to say his record as a soldier on his tour of vietnam by stating how 'betrayed' etc they felt when he (rightly) campaigned against the war AFTER his tour. I would have thought his efforts to end the needless conflict in Vietnam and thus save the lives of American troops would be something of indisputable merit. The fact he (again rightly) condemned the lack of discipline which led to murders, rapes torture etc by American troops is hardly something anyone with supposed morals(am i mistaken or are Republicans not supposed to be mostly conservative christians? so you would think we could expect 'morality' to be high on the agenda) would consider a negative point - for example can you imagine the outrage in the US, Britain and the rest of the world if a German politician was pilloried for his former opposition to Nazi outrages during the War because it was 'unpatriotic'?
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    (Original post by Made in the USA)
    If John Kerry can't run on his war record, what can he run on? His 19 year voting record in the senate? For good reason, he's avoided talking about his voting record, but now he might have to.

    I wouldn't be surprised to see his numbers continue to drop, especially if Bush get a bounce following the upcoming convention.
    True Kerrys done a great deal of FA over the last 20 years before suddenly deciding he should be the Commander in Chief, and against a proper politician he wouldnt stand much of a chance but its young George hes up against so theres plenty(or not actually) in his opponents history to put him in a better light.
    Bush - a proven coward during the Vietnam war and a man who lacked enough respect for his military to attend the national guard as he should(with question marks over possible drug abuse from this time).
    A man who has failed in practically every business venture he undertook despite having everything laid on a plate for him by his father and affluent friends and associates.
    A man whos presidency has seen the greatest terrorist attack in history befall his nation (quite possibly as a direct result of his own and his administrations incompetence regarding intelligence.) and whos antagonistic foreign policy has alienated all but one of Americas major allies and has created the most tense international atmosphere since the Cold War.
    A man whos presidency has seen two of the most shocking abuses of humanity by a 'civilised nation' in recent times - Guantanamo and arguably as a result of this, Abu Ghraib.
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    (Original post by an Siarach)
    I find those adverts hilarious - they state one thing with the purpose of questioning another. Only a complete fool could fall for them (sadly the majority of the electorate in any country is made up of complete fools.) They question Kerrys 'war record', which is to say his record as a soldier on his tour of vietnam by stating how 'betrayed' etc they felt when he (rightly) campaigned against the war AFTER his tour. I would have thought his efforts to end the needless conflict in Vietnam and thus save the lives of American troops would be something of indisputable merit. The fact he (again rightly) condemned the lack of discipline which led to murders, rapes torture etc by American troops is hardly something anyone with supposed morals(am i mistaken or are Republicans not supposed to be mostly conservative christians? so you would think we could expect 'morality' to be high on the agenda) would consider a negative point - for example can you imagine the outrage in the US, Britain and the rest of the world if a German politician was pilloried for his former opposition to Nazi outrages during the War because it was 'unpatriotic'?
    Kerry claimed three purple hearts based on self inflicted minor injuries that then allowed him to leave Vietnam months into service. With the exception of the odd couple of campaigners, the majority of Swift veterans see him as a fraudster who has no right to preach about a war record. Bob Dole who actually fought and was scarred in two wars is equally damning. A failed ploy by the Democrats to use Kerrys hollow war record over Bush, who incidentally praises Kerry's service and distances himself from the relevant adverts. To reiterate, the Republican party has nothing but respect for John Kerry's record and has nothing to do with the message being broadcast by Swift veterans who actually risked their lives IN Vietnam.
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    (Original post by an Siarach)
    True Kerrys done a great deal of FA over the last 20 years before suddenly deciding he should be the Commander in Chief, and against a proper politician he wouldnt stand much of a chance but its young George hes up against so theres plenty(or not actually) in his opponents history to put him in a better light.
    Bush - a proven coward during the Vietnam war and a man who lacked enough respect for his military to attend the national guard as he should(with question marks over possible drug abuse from this time).
    A man who has failed in practically every business venture he undertook despite having everything laid on a plate for him by his father and affluent friends and associates.
    A man whos presidency has seen the greatest terrorist attack in history befall his nation (quite possibly as a direct result of his own and his administrations incompetence regarding intelligence.) and whos antagonistic foreign policy has alienated all but one of Americas major allies and has created the most tense international atmosphere since the Cold War.
    A man whos presidency has seen two of the most shocking abuses of humanity by a 'civilised nation' in recent times - Guantanamo and arguably as a result of this, Abu Ghraib.
    all this is very good, but to me bush is no different to alot of presidents before in the policies he adopts, the problem is he is isnt very good at executing them
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    (Original post by Incomplete)
    all this is very good, but to me bush is no different to alot of presidents before in the policies he adopts, the problem is he is isnt very good at executing them
    examples?
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    Kerry claimed three purple hearts based on self inflicted minor injuries that then allowed him to leave Vietnam months into service.
    Is it actually prooven that the wounds were self inflicted or is it speculation? Just wondering because I hadn't heard that claim.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    examples?
    reagan for one, very similar in FP
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    Kerry claimed three purple hearts based on self inflicted minor injuries that then allowed him to leave Vietnam months into service.
    As this is such common knowledge one has to ask, why exactly was he 1) awarded the medals in the first place and 2) why has he not been stripped of them as a result of his supposed fraud?
    (Original post by vienna95)
    With the exception of the odd couple of campaigners, the majority of Swift veterans see him as a fraudster who has no right to preach about a war record. Bob Dole who actually fought and was scarred in two wars is equally damning. A failed ploy by the Democrats to use Kerrys hollow war record over Bush, who incidentally praises Kerry's service and distances himself from the relevant adverts.
    Again i would have thought it farely easy to realise what constitutes a combat situation and what does not - there should be no doubt over Kerrys war record and consequent decoration, either he faught or he did not and if the latter were true i would have thought it rather easy to prove definitively. Why have the Republicans not done so? The logical assumption is that these claims that Kerry is a fraud are simply propaganda.
    (Original post by vienna95)
    To reiterate, the Republican party has nothing but respect for John Kerry's record and has nothing to do with the message being broadcast by Swift veterans who actually risked their lives IN Vietnam.
    With the exception of the guy who had to be sacked when he was found out as having actively contributed to these adverts. As i said before, if Kerrys record is so easy to prove as fraudulent, the Republican Party would have torn it apart -why have they not?

    Also fraudelent record or not, he at least went to fight when it would have been just as easy for him as a young man of 'patrician' background to have stayed home like the coward George the Younger.
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    (Original post by Incomplete)
    all this is very good, but to me bush is no different to alot of presidents before in the policies he adopts, the problem is he is isnt very good at executing them
    I dont dispute this. Personally i quite like the man, i just think hes a fool and his supporters irritate me with their hypocrisy.
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    (Original post by an Siarach)
    i quite like the man, i just think hes a fool
    ok strange mix there
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    (Original post by Incomplete)
    ok strange mix there
    Not if you think about it, i actually dislike a great number of my friends.
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    (Original post by an Siarach)
    I find those adverts hilarious - they state one thing with the purpose of questioning another. Only a complete fool could fall for them (sadly the majority of the electorate in any country is made up of complete fools.) They question Kerrys 'war record', which is to say his record as a soldier on his tour of vietnam by stating how 'betrayed' etc they felt when he (rightly) campaigned against the war AFTER his tour. I would have thought his efforts to end the needless conflict in Vietnam and thus save the lives of American troops would be something of indisputable merit. The fact he (again rightly) condemned the lack of discipline which led to murders, rapes torture etc by American troops is hardly something anyone with supposed morals(am i mistaken or are Republicans not supposed to be mostly conservative christians? so you would think we could expect 'morality' to be high on the agenda) would consider a negative point - for example can you imagine the outrage in the US, Britain and the rest of the world if a German politician was pilloried for his former opposition to Nazi outrages during the War because it was 'unpatriotic'?
    He could have protested against the war without lying through his teeth. That's the problem.

    They attrocities were never witnessed by anyone that served with him.

    He lied about his wounds to get his first purple heart. Many of those who served with him say that he gave himself a self inflicted wound that was fixed with a band-aid.

    John Kerry lied about being under fire during a Mekong Delta engagement that won Kerry a Bronze Star

    Kerry lied about being in neutral Cambodia

    He lied about not using footage he created during the Vietnam War. He is on record telling a reporter he had "no intention" of using the footage for campaign purposes. He filmed himself in a way that suggested he was in danger, even when he wasn't. Who on earth goes to war filming re-enactments of combat scenes with a home camera?????
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    (Original post by an Siarach)
    Also fraudelent record or not, he at least went to fight when it would have been just as easy for him as a young man of 'patrician' background to have stayed home like the coward George the Younger.
    Bush isn't running on his war record.
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    (Original post by Made in the USA)
    Bush isn't running on his war record.
    good job too
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    (Original post by Made in the USA)
    He could have protested against the war without lying through his teeth. That's the problem.

    They attrocities were never witnessed by anyone that served with him.
    Did he claim to have witnessed these atrocities? And even if he had, does it surprise you that soldiers would not want to admit to witnessing such behaviour by their comrades?

    (Original post by Made in the USA)
    He lied about his wounds to get his first purple heart. Many of those who served with him say that he gave himself a self inflicted wound that was fixed with a band-aid.

    John Kerry lied about being under fire during a Mekong Delta engagement that won Kerry a Bronze Star
    If its really this easy to gain the major american military honours i might ask for some myself.

    (Original post by Made in the USA)
    He lied about not using footage he created during the Vietnam War. He is on record telling a reporter he had "no intention" of using the footage for campaign purposes. He filmed himself in a way that suggested he was in danger, even when he wasn't. Who on earth goes to war filming re-enactments of combat scenes with a home camera?????
    Lol that is actually a very good point.
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    (Original post by Made in the USA)
    Bush isn't running on his war record.
    Exactly.
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    (Original post by an Siarach)
    If its really this easy to gain the major american military honours i might ask for some myself.
    It is, from what I have heard, easy to get them if you are dishonest. Many veterans have turned down purple hearts, feeling that they were not worthy of the honor, despite being severly injured.

    A small bruise on his right arm and a minor injury to his buttocks won Kerry his third purple heart and a trip home. He got that injury throwing a concussion grenade into a rice pile. Kerry claims the injury came from shrapnel from an underwater mine, but Larry Thurlow, an officer on shore with Kerry that day, insists the wound was the result of Kerry's decision to throw a concussion grenade into a rice pile. In Kerry's journal, he even admits to injured by rice, not shrapnel
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    (Original post by Made in the USA)
    It is, from what I have heard, easy to get them if you are dishonest. Many veterans have turned down purple hearts, feeling that they were not worthy of the honor, despite being severly injured.

    A small bruise on his right arm and a minor injury to his buttocks won Kerry his third purple heart and a trip home. He got that injury throwing a concussion grenade into a rice pile. Kerry claims the injury came from shrapnel from an underwater mine, but Larry Thurlow, an officer on shore with Kerry that day, insists the wound was the result of Kerry's decision to throw a concussion grenade into a rice pile. In Kerry's journal, he even admits to injured by rice, not shrapnel
    I'm sure rice traveling at just under the speed of sound would hurt too though
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    (Original post by Made in the USA)
    Bush isn't running on his war record.
    (Original post by an Siarach)
    Exactly.
    It's true that Bush can't run on his war record, but running, exclusively, on a war record isn't enough to become president. If serving in a war was all that was needed, Bob Dole and George H W Bush would have beaten Clinton by a landslide.
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    (Original post by Incomplete)
    good job too
    i) the difference between admitting to ones good fortune and lying about ones non-existant war record is great.
    ii) an ability to act as a commander-in-chief is in no way represented by ones war service
    iii) the American public overwhelmingly favour Bush as their leader in context of defense and military matters.
 
 
 
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