Owen Jones calls on Corbyn to resign
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Original post by Fullofsurprises
The right wing media control the major information sources to most ordinary people - they portray Corbyn in constantly negative terms, purely because he would be a threat to their interests if elected.
There is no 'hate' or 'love' for politicians naturally, it's all a matter of spin control, social media propaganda, major media channels, etc.
There is no 'hate' or 'love' for politicians naturally, it's all a matter of spin control, social media propaganda, major media channels, etc.
Apart from Jeremy being a terrorist sympathiser
Original post by Martin Grainger
Apart from Jeremy being a terrorist sympathiser
That's just an example of the smears. It's also a matter of perspective - you say Hamas are 'terrorists', some people say they are 'freedom fighters'. Also, Corbyn never stated that he agreed with Hamas's methods. Oh and he isn't the only Western politician to have met with Hamas and doubtless the British Government have had discussions with them in the past.
Your opinions sound like they are derived from the Mail or the Murdoch press.
Original post by illegaltobepoor
You're completely delusional. Corbyn has "cleared out" nothing. All the moderates are still in the party, and in fact the Momentum-types are leaving the party because they're completely disillusioned with Corbyn's anti-EU stance. And on the ground level, at the grassroots, the moderates are winning branch elections, winning selections for party positions. There's no question that at this year's conference the Corbyn faction won't have anything close to a majority.
As soon as Corbyn steps down, the sane faction will again rule the party
And conspiracy nuts will be cast out. Sorry mate, but you failed to turn the Labour Party into the conspiracist, pro-Russian shill organisation that you so desperately want. You had your chance, and you failed both in policy terms, in terms of taking on the Tories (complete failure there) and in terms of transforming the party and getting rid of the sane moderates. We're still here, and soon we'll be back in charge.And then Labour will be in a position to get back into power and actually do things like provide support to the disabled, the unemployed, rather than just moaning from the sidelines of perpetual, impotent opposition as people like you, the embittered conspiracy nuts, are so in favour of.
By the way, for you to speak of what proper left-wing positions are is ridiculous given what a right-wing kipper you are. Go join UKIP.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Fullofsurprises
That's just an example of the smears. It's also a matter of perspective - you say Hamas are 'terrorists', some people say they are 'freedom fighters'. Also, Corbyn never stated that he agreed with Hamas's methods. Oh and he isn't the only Western politician to have met with Hamas and doubtless the British Government have had discussions with them in the past.
Your opinions sound like they are derived from the Mail or the Murdoch press.
Your opinions sound like they are derived from the Mail or the Murdoch press.
He refers to them as his "friends" Corbyn also wants to import refugee terrorists
Original post by Fullofsurprises
If an organisation, (1) is based on a religious-fascist ideology, and (2) have a policy of directly targeting civilians, then yes one can objectively refer to them as terrorists.
Also, Corbyn never stated that he agreed with Hamas's methods.
Actually he did. He called them his "friends" and praised their, quote (Corbyn's words), "dedication to peace and social justice".
Oh and he isn't the only Western politician to have met with Hamas and doubtless the British Government have had discussions with them in the past.
Here we go again. The typical, ignorant hard-left defence based on spurious equivalences and a lack of actual knowledge of the conflicts whereof they speak. It's like when hard-leftists say that Corbyn was proved right on Northern Ireland, that he was "ahead of his time" in "talking to the IRA" and the government eventually adopted his position.
For someone to say that, they are either dishonest or completely ignorant. Corbyn's position was one of supporting the IRA; he supported the organisation and their objectives of forcing the UK out of Northern Ireland. Whenever he engaged with / spoke to them, it was to express support for them and call on the UK to withdraw from NI.
By contrast, every time the UK government engaged with the IRA, it was to try to convince them to put down their guns and engage in a political process whereby they would achieve their political objectives by persuasion, through democratic politics at the ballot box. Corbyn wasn't "ahead of his time" in engaging with the IRA, the UK had secret back-channel talks with the IRA all through the 1970s and 1980s through the MI6 officer Michael Oatley. In fact, the Tory Home Secretary Willie Whitelaw had IRA chief Sean Macstiofain and a very young Gerry Adams come to his London flat in Chelsea in 1972 to discuss the temporary ceasefire that was then in effect, and on what terms the IRA might extend it.
The IRA men basically said that short of UK withdrawal, they would not extend the ceasefire to save lives. Throughout the conflict (and HMG's numerous behind-the-scenes talks with IRA), the government's position was consistent and firm; they would not withdraw from Northern Ireland, and that in order to get recognition and move toward a peace process, the IRA would have to lay down their guns to have a seat at the table. Corbyn said this was impossible, that we just had to surrender to the IRA and give them what they wanted.
In the end, everything the UK government said was proved right and everything Corbyn said was proved wrong. In the end the UK government convinced the IRA to lay down their guns and bombs, and engage in the political process, without conceding a UK withdrawal from Northern Ireland.
To somehow claim that this in any way vindicated Corbyn is laughable; it didn't vindicate him, it completely discredited him because it proved his bad faith and poor judgment in cheering on the IRA's campaign of bombings and shootings when in the end, the IRA gave up without achieving their objective. Therefore, every death was unnecessary. In the end the IRA lay down their arms for terms no more ambitious than were on offer in the early 1970s.
The same applies to Hamas, and if you want to claim Corbyn has in any way been some kind of peacemaker, ahead of his time, vindicated, then you are (like those who say this on the IRA issue) demonstrating you are either arguing dishonestly and in bad faith, or you simply don't know very much about the issues and the history of the region.
@Martin Grainger
Original post by Martin Grainger
He refers to them as his "friends"
Indeed. Corbyn didn't merely call them his friends, he praised their (in Corbyn's words), quote "dedication to peace and social justice". This man is unbelievable; shameless beyond words.
Original post by Martin Grainger
He refers to them as his "friends" Corbyn also wants to import refugee terrorists
In recent years he is on record as saying he now regrets having used that wording.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/04/jeremy-corbyn-says-he-regrets-calling-hamas-and-hezbollah-friends
Original post by Fullofsurprises
In recent years he is on record as saying he now regrets having used that wording.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/04/jeremy-corbyn-says-he-regrets-calling-hamas-and-hezbollah-friends
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/04/jeremy-corbyn-says-he-regrets-calling-hamas-and-hezbollah-friends
Convenient how he now regrets it, because he is leader of the opposition
Original post by AlexanderHam
Absolutely. He's not just a former major in the Parachute Regiment, a battle-hardened veteran of multiple campaigns, but his wife died of cancer leaving him a single father and widower. You basically can't attack him in personal terms without looking like an absolute c-word. He innoculates us from many right-wing attacks (and trust me, it wouldn't take long for some right-winger in the media to cross the line and say something like, "So what that his wife died? That doesn't make him beyond criticism", which is technically true but the optics of that would be terrible for the right).
Pretty much all non-policy attacks on him would simply rebound on the right.
Absolutely. He's not just a former major in the Parachute Regiment, a battle-hardened veteran of multiple campaigns, but his wife died of cancer leaving him a single father and widower. You basically can't attack him in personal terms without looking like an absolute c-word. He innoculates us from many right-wing attacks (and trust me, it wouldn't take long for some right-winger in the media to cross the line and say something like, "So what that his wife died? That doesn't make him beyond criticism", which is technically true but the optics of that would be terrible for the right).
Pretty much all non-policy attacks on him would simply rebound on the right.
The problem with that though is that he probably won't want to be party leader, or in any position of power within the party really. At least not for a while. Would you want to become a party leader to lead a party into a general election when your wife died and you have kids to raise on your own?
Original post by RF_PineMarten
The problem with that though is that he probably won't want to be party leader, or in any position of power within the party really. At least not for a while. Would you want to become a party leader to lead a party into a general election when your wife died and you have kids to raise on your own?
His wife died about five years ago now. He has since remarried and his kids are older. He made it clear in 2015 he wasn't interested in the leadership but since then he has told people in moderate circles he is interested in it, although he rather be "drafted" Eisenhower style than having to go through a knock-down, drag-em-out political fight for it.
It seems that some people are desperate for Jarvis not to stand for leader because they know that no other candidate would stand a chance, and it would be the end of the hard-left conspiracy-nut era of the Labour Party. If Jarvis stands for election, the Momentum project is over.
Original post by RF_PineMarten
The problem with that though is that he probably won't want to be party leader, or in any position of power within the party really. At least not for a while. Would you want to become a party leader to lead a party into a general election when your wife died and you have kids to raise on your own?
The bigger point is that anyone who leads now is probably doomed to loose.
Original post by AlexanderHam
If Jarvis stands for election, the Momentum project is over.
If Jarvis stands for election, the Momentum project is over.
Good luck getting them to vote for him with that attitude
Momentum are not going anywhere for good or ill.
The type of stuff momentum stand for (ignoring foreign policy perhaps) really isn't that extreme or unpopular with the public. I don't see why the labour party you described earlier in this thread, moderate foreign policy with socialist internal policies has to exclude momentum (if you ask me something like momentum has to be a part of it).
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
Good luck getting them to vote for him with that attitude
We won't need Momentum members because unless McDonnell wises up and cuts a deal of the sort I have proposed, there won't be any hard-left candidate on the ballot. Most people at the grassroots of the party are agreed that Momentum is extremely unlikely to have a majority at this year's conference, they're simply much thinner on the ground than their numbers (in terms of new members joining since 2015) would suggest. This is why we've been seeing, in branch and regional elections, the moderate factions doing very well (such as winning the leadership election for London Young Labour; if Corbyn can't win there...)
They haven't been organising very well and they tend to have a short attention span; they get involved when there's a leadership election on, but otherwise they aren't very involved and we find that the people actually getting out there, door-knocking and leafletting, are the same old moderate hands who were doing it pre-2015. I've also found that the pro-Corbyn types who have got involved at our branch level are the ones who have been most disillusioned with Corbyn's incompetence, they just seem to be a very different crowd to the Twitter Momentumers (the sort who called Owen Jones a Red Tory traitor who is clearly in the pay of Mandelson).
So.. they're not going to get their motion to reduce the number of MPs to nominate a leader to 5% passed, and therefore the hard-left won't be in a position to press forward a new candidate (and in any case, it's not 2015/2016 anymore, the pro-Brexit stance adopted by Corbyn has been devastating for him among many of his supporters).
By contrast, by 2018 or 2019 when Dan Jarvis stands, we will still have the £3 or £15 or whatever open primary, and many anti-Brexit moderates from across the spectrum, who couldn't be bothered to get off their butts to prevent the Corbyn ascendancy, but who are now desperate for genuine opposition to the Tories, will flood into the leadership election to case their £3 ballots to give us back a real opposition party.
Momentum are not going anywhere for good or ill.
Momentum only has, what, 10,000 members? The Corbyn movement as a whole shot its bolt; Brexit killed it. People who were previously blind to every Corbyn screw-up suddenly started paying attention.
My prediction is that once the party gets back a mainstream and/or soft-left leader, many of the most extreme Momentum types will drift back to Ken Loach style fringe parties, where they've been for the past 10 years leading up to 2015.
Having said that, the party is clearly not going back to the New Labour years. Very few people want that. The party has changed in its economic orientation. But it's also worthwhile pointing out that it's obnoxious for Corbynites to claim somehow everyone pre-Corbyn was basically a Red Tory sellout. Milliband took the most left-wing platform to the election that we've seen since the 1970s; I mean, he promised to split up the biggest banks by imposing a market share cap for goodness sake! That is solid left. I think a Millibandite disposition is what we can expect on economic policy going forward, but under a leader we can actually sell to the public.
The type of stuff momentum stand for (ignoring foreign policy perhaps) really isn't that extreme or unpopular with the public. I don't see why the labour party you described earlier in this thread, moderate foreign policy with socialist internal policies has to exclude momentum (if you ask me something like momentum has to be a part of it).
The problem with Momentum is that they have a proprietary view of the Labour Party and a personality cult mentality. They believe that the party belongs to them, and that anyone who doesn't adhere to their views is a "Blairite Red Tory traitor". They also exist to be a praetorian guard for the Corbyn leadership. Furthermore, the nutty foreign policy stuff is probably the only thing that binds Momentum members together; speaking to them you will get countless different views on economics, from straight-out communism to Scandi-style social democracy to a kind of wet, Green-ish liberalism. But their extreme conspiratorial mindset when it comes to foreign policy, their view of Tony Blair as a "war criminal", etc ad infinitum, is what binds them together.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by illegaltobepoor
Sorry but Corbyn had to happen to give the Labour party a good clear out. I couldn't care if Labour don't see power for another 10 years because they need reality to purge the inner souls of the regressive left until they are thinking properly. Tories might be self interest private profiteers that wreck public services, privatize healthcare and steal welfare from the disabled and your gran but at least we aren't like Spain and Ireland. The important thing is there is jobs and access to education.
Zero hours jobs, underfunded schools and tuition fees hiked by those who didn't have to pay.
Even when you try to defend them you fail.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Martin Grainger
He refers to them as his "friends" Corbyn also wants to import refugee terrorists
Baseless claim from a proud bigot.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by AlexanderHam
Milliband took the most left-wing platform to the election that we've seen since the 1970s; I mean, he promised to split up the biggest banks by imposing a market share cap for goodness sake! That is solid left.
Milliband took the most left-wing platform to the election that we've seen since the 1970s; I mean, he promised to split up the biggest banks by imposing a market share cap for goodness sake! That is solid left.
You mean, as was done by a Tory/LibDem government when they demanded the divesture of TSB by Lloyds?
What you call 'solid left' was in fact typical social democrat management of the market stuff until we reached the madcap age of extremist neoliberalism that we currently inhabit, where white is black and pink is green.
Original post by Midlander
He did refer to hamas as his friends though, do not be lazy-google it. Terrorist sympathiser
Original post by PearceVDC
Regardless, Corbyn cannot win the GE. Britain votes for strong leaders, and he is not that. They're tanking in the polls.
However the crisis in Labour is not just over Corbyn.
There is a wide divide in the Labour Party, between 'metropolitan' Labour and 'Northern' Labour, to be very crude in describing it.
Pro EU and anti EU. Globalist and Protectionist. Pro mass migration and anti mass migration.
It's not hard to guess which section dominates the party.
As well as this, the centre left is doing badly across Europe generally.
Labour is going to have to radically re-invent itself, yet again, if it doesn't want to fade into political irrelevance.
I think this is needed too. The Conservative Party is claiming to be balancing the books, but is lowering taxes? This just doesn't work. There is an alternative.
However the crisis in Labour is not just over Corbyn.
There is a wide divide in the Labour Party, between 'metropolitan' Labour and 'Northern' Labour, to be very crude in describing it.
Pro EU and anti EU. Globalist and Protectionist. Pro mass migration and anti mass migration.
It's not hard to guess which section dominates the party.
As well as this, the centre left is doing badly across Europe generally.
Labour is going to have to radically re-invent itself, yet again, if it doesn't want to fade into political irrelevance.
I think this is needed too. The Conservative Party is claiming to be balancing the books, but is lowering taxes? This just doesn't work. There is an alternative.
Balancing books really the have added a **** load of debt
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