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My fellow left-wingers. If you're anti-UK but pro-EU. Can we PLEASE get a grip? watch

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    Dear SNP, Greens, Labour and Lib Dem voters in Britain, especially Scotland.

    1. You're from England/London, I'm the minority!!

    Living in Scotland, I've had too many chats with White, Straight, Middle Class educated tweens who are SNP and Green voters telling me that they feel like a minority in the UK and it's not fair. As a Black, Gay and working class lad who went to a failing state school. With parents who grew up in relative poverty in the UK and grandparents in absolute poverty as Colonial British subjects from the Caribbean. I find this some of the most offensive and ignorant line to utter from a University educated person in the UK. Check your privilege.

    2. But we didn't vote for those nasty Tories in the British Union.

    This is the most worrying line but it usually comes from a position of honest ignorance, heck I've met people studying Politics at University and they couldn't even get the basics in European politics. I am a passionate Reaminer, check my post post history. If you're going to vote to leave the British Union and then join the European Union, you need to reconcile something. You may never 'get what you voted for'.

    Most people in Scotland vote SNP and Greens in the European elections. The SNP and Scottish Greens sit together in the European Parliament in the same party and it's on The Left. But the European Parliament is dominated by the Centre, Centre-Right and Far-Right parties. Even when the Centre-Left party has gained the most seats historically, it has sided with Centre and Centre-Right. So what? Basically the European version of the Labour party enter's coalition with the European version of the Tories. This is why the EU has failed to introduce tougher laws to protect LGBT people.

    Why? It's being prevented by Central and Eastern European MEPs in the European Parliament and Prime Ministers/Presidents in the European Council from doing so. They are to the right of the UK Tories on many issues like LGBT rights, abortion, immigration, environmentalism so on. Google Poland and Hungary, their MEPs and Presidents make the Tories seem like cute liberal teddy bears. Heck even Angela Merkel, leader of Germany, refuses to even try legalising same-sex marriage. If you think leaving the UK and joining the EU because of some anti-Tory sentiment, you'll be swapping the demon with the devil.

    3. Scotland is so different from England. We can't be in the same Union!

    Forgetting academic research has resulted in evidence showing the social and political attitudes between England and Scotland are almost identical. The economic, cultural and political differences between Scotland and the UK is nothing compared to Scotland and the EU. I think what many people on the left like to do is pretend the EU is made up of the Nordic/Scandinavian countries plus Ireland, Belgium and the Netherlands. Well newsflash, it's not. You have Poland and Hungary backsliding into illiberal Democracy. Suppressing journalism, the courts and refusing to even further LGBT or Women's right even to the standards we would find tolerable. There are 15-20% Right and Far-Right Wing MEPs in the European Parliament as of today. In British context? that would be like UKIP and the BNP being the third largest bloc in the UK.

    I find it downright intellectually disgraceful when some lad on the BBC uttered the phrase 'Tory Empire' when being interviewed the other day. Yet you had SNP MEPs standing up in a Parliament making a (admirable speech to be fair) that has White Supremacist. But again, a White, Middle Class, Straight man from Scotland who had no clue of his privilege wouldn't see that clash of logic.

    Joining the European Union that watched as millions of brown people from Syria washed up on the beach? SINGLE MARKET, MONEY!

    Joining the European Union that rejected the pleas of Greek people in a referendum twice? SINGLE MARKET, MONEY!

    Joining the European Union that has member states backsliding into illiberal democracy? SINGLE MARKET, MONEY!

    4. Concluding thoughts.

    Look. The EU as a whole is still a better (in terms of human rights, standard of living, economic and political freedoms etc) place to live than anywhere in Africa, Asia or South America. But to pretend it's better than the British Union, that's an entirely different matter.

    I say all this because as the UK referendum was underway. I kept hearing outright lies (although some was from ignorance) from Brexit voters but also from Remainers. So many times I read Remainers comment on forums, saw people on TV or in group conversations say things like the EU is not like a federation, countries are independent, or the European Parliament does not have that much power, or that we are in control of our borders and so on. I was livid. Why? because it's this same barefaced lie that got us Remainers in this mess in the first place. A Union that is without honesty and trust is doomed to fail. It lacks democratic consent.

    The people of California are not told the US Supreme Court is not able to strike down California law. They are not told the US is not a federation of smaller states. They are not told they are a independent country like Canada or Mexico. They are not told the US legislature does not have any real power over their lives. They are not sold ******** lies that they have control over internal US immigration. Because you know what? they don't and neither does any other 28 member states of the European Union. They are given this information at home, school, from the media and so on. They, every person living in each US state, calculate the benefits and drawbacks of being in the USA and they judge it. Hence you have a democratic federation of 50 states who are not (as of now, Trump still has 4 years to go!) seriously calling for separation.

    So please, whatever you do. Never vote for or against any political unit, the UK or EU. Without putting aside your heart just for one beat. Use the head. Remember the likes of the SNP and UKIP are not there to really give equal benefits and drawbacks of the British or European Union. The clue is in their party name. They are ideologically glued to their political unit.
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    I say this as somebody who voted remain, but thinks we should now leave and who is opposed to Scottish independence. I consider myself centre right to right wing.


    On your second point:


    I disagree. Countries can technically leave the European whenever they want so long as their parliament approves: this is not the case in the U.K where they have to ask for permission to hold a referendum. I fail to see how an independent Scotland would be 'joining the devil' in terms of social policy than the 'demon' UK as social policy is still set by member states i.e. Look at the divergence between Sweden and Poland.

    On your third point


    ???

    UKIP are the largest U.K. European party...


    ...

    On the letting millions of refugees drown point. Wtf! The EU has done far more (wrongly in my opinion) in accepting refugees than the UK.


    On your last point.


    EU member states do have control over their borders: if they wished to exert greater control then they could willingly and freely leave the EU as we have done so. Personally I think it was the abysmal handling of the Refugee crisis that resulted in Brexit thanks to Merkel not to mention Cameron's stupidity.


    Have no idea what your last paragraph is about..
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Countries can technically leave the European whenever they want so long as their parliament approves: this is not the case in the U.K where they have to ask for permission to hold a referendum.
    So? for a territory to be truly independent it needs to be a Soverign-state, like the USA, India and China. All three Soverign-states. But the moment you join organisations, your ability to exercise your sovereignty goes into decline, it's fluid. North Korea is the nearest example you'll get on Earth where a Soverign-state is independent from the global community and obviously, no man is an island unless they want to be poor, ill and die. Which North Korea is.

    The principle of self-determination enshrined in international law, while not as strongly enforced as national law, means any territory within a Soverign-state can in theory become it's own sovereign-state. Of course I do not deny there are strong factors that make this hard, for example the goodwill of the sovereign-state it's trying to leave and the international community. To put it simply, not all sovereign-states are democracies who fully commit to the United Nations principle of self-determination.

    Serbia, a Soverign-state is fighting the territory of Kosovo from becoming a Soverign-state. Britain, a Soverign-state is fighting it's territory of Scotland from becoming a Soverign-state. Spain, a Soverign-state is fighting the territory of Catalonia from becoming a Soverign-State. Canada, a Soverign-state is fighting the territory of Quebec from becoming a Soverign-state.

    The international community has legal rules to allow territories to leave but as I said earlier, most Soverign-States are dicks. Luckily in North America and Europe, Soverign-States like Canada and the UK are a generally speaking Liberal Democracies and thus are not dicks to it's people. So we fully sign up to the principle of self-determination. That is why the Canadian government allowed Quebec to hold two referendums and that is why the British government will probably allow Scotland it's second one too. This is why the European Union enshrined the legal mechanism on how to leave it. We're not dicks like Russia (Crimea) and China (Tibet).

    But Quebec and Scotland are not really independent Soverign-states. Because their laws and policies are not supreme within their territories for as long as they are within Canada and Britain. Canadian and British law is. Well guess what? French and German law and policies are not supreme within their territories too. European policy and law is. Just because France and Germany have the fundamental right to leave in theory, in practice their sovereign-statehood is temporarily suspended. They are thus, until they evoke Article 50 not independent sovereign-states.

    The Greek people rejected the EU bailout by a 61% majority. The EU said, sorry but no. The Greek people of course in theory have the right to invoke Article 50 and restore their independent sovereign-statehood, like the UK did and leave but in practice their government (rightly or wrongly) judged it would be a disaster and thus the state backed down and has continued to obey the will of the EU Council, Commission and Parliament.

    (Original post by Davij038)
    I fail to see how an independent Scotland would be 'joining the devil' in terms of social policy than the 'demon' UK as social policy is still set by member states i.e. Look at the divergence between Sweden and Poland.
    You just moved the goal post. I never mentioned social policy being in the control of the EU and I am fully aware of the level of European integration on policy areas. My point was many people from the left and in Scotland, label Tories that largely hail from Southern England are intolerable, refusing to think it's acceptable for SNP MPs to share the British Parliament with them and implement policy.

    Yet on many issues that are decided on a European level, they are happy to have it heavily influenced, watered down and on many times halted by MEPs that are Right-Wing and Far-Right. The EU is implementing austerity on it's member states. Hence why the Greeks were begging for a change of policy but were rejected. Who by? the European Right. Who are in control of the European Parliament, Commission and Council.

    European Commission President = European Right.
    European Council President = European Right.
    European Council members = Majority, European Right.
    European Parliament President = European Right.
    European Parliament members = Majority, European Right.

    The EU is, as of now, governed by the European version of the right-wing Conservatives. Of course, with elections this could change. But that applies to the British Union too.

    Leaving the UK to join the EU. Scotland would replace British Right-Wing with European Right-Wing. For what? slightly more control over social policy funded by rapidly declining oil and gas revenues, a defence policy that will be heavily relying on the goodwill of nuclear armed USA, France and the UK in NATO and the rest of the EU. Because it will not be in of its charge of its economic policy, since it will legally obliged to join the Eurozone. Which by the way wants to finish economic integration to have centralised tax raising powers. Oh but wait, us Remainers should not say that. Hush. Let's keep lying. That will win people over in the long run!

    (Original post by Davij038)

    ???

    UKIP are the largest U.K. European party...
    UKIP are not the 3rd largest parliamentary party and the BNP have no seats. If you mirrored the party political representation of the European parliament onto the British Parliament. UKIP would have 50 - 60 seats and the BNP would have 50 - 60 seats. So again, I disagree. If you're happy to share a parliament with European version of the Tories, UKIP and BNP. Don't spout crap like the British Tories in Parliament is making you feel so angry and desperate to rescue Scotland.

    (Original post by Davij038)
    On the letting millions of refugees drown point. Wtf! The EU has done far more (wrongly in my opinion) in accepting refugees than the UK.
    Wrong. The German government, led by Angela Merkel let the million Syrians in. From the top of my head I think some Nordic countries let more in in terms of per population of their countries but cannot remember. The EU Commission, Council and Parliament did nothing. You had European MEPs from the left (Greens, Socialist etc) very angry with the EU. Because it failed to help.

    Why on earth do you think the Central and Eastern European Prime Minister and Presidents are so pissed off with the West? why do you think they have violated the terms of Schengen (passport free freedom of movement) and started to put fences and alongside their borders? Because they know, once the refugees are given German citizenship they then gain European citizenship and thus the freedom to move anywhere in the EU and this pisses of their population because. Gasp. Not all EU states are social liberal in comparision to the UK. Some are socially very conservative. Thus pretty xenophobic, sexist, racist, homophobic. Oh wait, let's pretend that's not true. Remainers got to keep lying. Never be critical of the EU...

    Now notice I am not suggesting I am against letting Syrians in, I am from the left. So naturally I more or less welcome the actions of Angela Merkel. But Central and Eastern Europe are way more socially conservative. They, as I have constantly stated in my previous comments. Are led by politicians that are, if they came to the UK, would be members of UKIP and the BNP.

    You may wonder why I am bringing up the social and political dimension of the EU so much. Well because as much as began as an economic union, it's also had political aims right from the start. It was suppose to be a Union founded on the principles of peace, liberty and democracy. So when you have left-wing people like SNP, Green and Labour voters speak uncritical of when it fails short of such principles. I end up making posts like this.

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    It looks like they're aiming for membership of the EEA rather than the EU. Re the Euro if they did end up joining the EU they can employ the same loophole as Sweden if they want to avoid it.

    UKIP would also have c80 seats and be the third largest parliamentary party if we had a fair electoral system(I'm no fan of them but they're massively underrepresented).

    Whilst I have sympathy for the Greeks' plight the situation is entirely of their own making and isn't the first time.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17140379
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    Not sure what your point is regarding independence, I largely agree with what you say but I maintain that EU states have control over their borders in that they willingly choose to be in the EU. The point also stands RE Greece- if they were that unhappy they can leave it's simple really.

    JamesN88 beat me to it regarding ukip and PR- which most of the left advocate.

    As for your last point- true the UK is more socially liberal but it is also much more economically right wing than the EU.


    The problem with the EU is a paradox- it's democratic features prevent it from being fully democratic,
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    In 2014, I could say to people although Cameron and the government had flaws, ultimately the union was a net positive and things would get better. I can’t say that now.

    I’m ashamed of being any part of this Theresa May shambles and I’m not going to be a hypocrite. I can’t stand her and can’t lecture that people should put up with her on the rare chance Labour forms some sort of opposition.

    It is about choice. Scotland can elect its own people, hold them accountable and vote on whether to accept the terms for joining Europe. That is a hell of a lot better than May (who is not supported or wanted in Scotland) chirping up from London dragging people out of the EU against their will and forcing nuclear submarines and pushing through fracking and all the other bull people don’t support.

    You can try to compare Europe and the UK but it comes down to choice. Scotland will have to reapply and chose whether it will join the EU. It deserves a choice whether it is willing to put up with May.

    I doubt this is many’s preference. It will be for some of course but I know I would prefer a decent UK government. Since that isn’t an option, it is stick with May or leave. And I certainly won’t begrudge anyone voting to Leave this time.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    As for your last point- true the UK is more socially liberal but it is also much more economically right wing than the EU,
    This.

    If you look at the nationalist parties in Europe they tend to favour economic protectionism and strong social security policies, they just want them reserved exclusively for the natives and zero non-white immigration(whites only Socialism effectively). They're light years apart from UKIP or the Tory right who want laissez-faire Capitalism and couldn't give two ****s about public services.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Not sure what your point is regarding independence, I largely agree with what you say but I maintain that EU states have control over their borders in that they willingly choose to be in the EU. The point also stands RE Greece- if they were that unhappy they can leave it's simple really.

    JamesN88 beat me to it regarding ukip and PR- which most of the left advocate.

    As for your last point- true the UK is more socially liberal but it is also much more economically right wing than the EU.


    The problem with the EU is a paradox- it's democratic features prevent it from being fully democratic,
    I should have put it another way.

    You cannot be a member/part of the British or European Union and be an independent sovereign-state. In order for that, your laws and policies need to be supreme.

    That's my point.
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    Excellent OP, gives me plenty to chew on.
 
 
 
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