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Declining Grade's for Oxbridge.

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Good bloke

It always worries me when people who study English to a high level cannot spell "grammar" and don't know about punctuation.

Don't blame the OP; blame an education system that lets pupils finish school without knowing the difference between the apostrophe of possession and the apostrophe of omission.

Reply 21

x_LiNk_x

Blame far below average comprehensive schools in Nottingham. :p:

Reply 22

the_alba

x_LiNk_x

Blame far below average comprehensive schools in Nottingham. :p:

Fair point, but if you read independently, as Oxbridge applicants should generally enjoy doing, I don't think you can always blame your school. None of us are really taught punctuation and grammar in school anymore anyway - we know how to use it through our own reading. At least, that's my experience. But good luck with your application :smile:

Reply 23

coldfish

I have to be honest, I think most punctuation is impossible to teach. The apostrophe is the one that everybody gets worked up about because it's probably the only one they understand themselves.
I have faith that most people who write on these forums with awful punctuation/grammar do so because they think that it's acceptable to be a bit slapdash on internet forums, and actually wouldn't do so in an essay. It's a shame that people have this opinion, but oh well...

Reply 24

Jigglypuff

x_LiNk_x

Bloody hell, I didn't really know you guys cared so much about grammer. I don't actually know why I put an apostrophe on grades, I was probably rushing because I was really nervous waiting for a reply.

Anyways, I don't really think I'm dim seeing as I got 4A's (history,english, maths and business), I just messed up in PE (C) and our sociology teacher took the last 3 months of school off because she figured out she had breast cancer :eek:

Shouldn't that be "'grades'", as you're quoting something? :wink:

Blame far below average comprehensive schools in Nottingham

No offence, but you should know how to spell 'grammar' etc before secondary school, so don't play the comprehensive card.

Reply 25

Lidka

coldfish

I have to be honest, I think most punctuation is impossible to teach. The apostrophe is the one that everybody gets worked up about because it's probably the only one they understand themselves.

How is punctuation impossible to teach? Learning it may be the difficult part for students who don't read regularly (or at all :rolleyes:

), but like grammar, it's only logical once you take the time to think about it.

The problem with apostrophe is it has a billion different functions - it's not just punctuation in the same way a comma is. (And I resent the idea that it's the only one whose function I know :p:

). Other languages have cases that change the actual words, whereas our genitive is denoted by a little symbol that's easily confused with the other jobs it does. Schools don't bother teaching why it's there, only that it should be; it's no wonder students get confused. :frown:

coldfish

I have faith that most people who write on these forums with awful punctuation/grammar do so because they think that it's acceptable to be a bit slapdash on internet forums, and actually wouldn't do so in an essay. It's a shame that people have this opinion, but oh well...

Oh, I wish I had your faith!

Reply 26

chronicles

I really don't see why everyone is getting so worked up over a couple of wrongly placed apostrophes.

Grammar does not necessarily come naturally to people who read. I know people who devour books but do not quite pay attention to individual words, simply because they cannot wait to reach the next para/ sentence etc.

You have to actually pay attention and make an effort to learn, but teaching certainly will help too. I realized recently that some people write amazing essays and have a great vocabulary, but can mistakes with grammer consistently.

Also, if a system allows people to retake exams, then why the hell shouldn't people make use of it? Obviously your education board must know the consequences of allowing people to re-sit, and yet they have such a system. Where I am from, no such thing exists. Nonetheless, if there is such a thing, then no reason why someone should not use it to their advantage.

I see what you mean about taking an exam at an older age and having the advantage of having learnt more. Then again the question falls on the system implemented by your education board.

Oh the irony.

" apostrohphe's' " was a deliberately spelt that way, but for the sake of you grammar police who can't seem to catch that, it has been changed.

Reply 29

Lidka

crayons

Grammer does not necessarily come naturally to people who read. I know people who devour books but do not quite pay attention to individual words, simply because they cannot wait to reach the next para/ sentence etc.

You have to actually pay attention and make an effort to learn, but teaching certainly will help too. I realized recently that some people write amazing essays and have a great vocabulary, but can mistakes with grammer consistently.

I really, really hope you're being ironic.

Those readers whom you mention are doing themselves no favours by skim-reading - how can they have claim to have read the books, if they miss words and thus the meaning of the text itself? That makes no sense. An author wrote that text for a reason. No wonder they don't pick up good grammar if that's what they're doing.

Likewise, those amazing essays aren't amazing if the grammar is incorrect - grammar isn't optional, or there to make writing look pretty, it does a job. Grammatical mistakes are basic, basic errors, and discredit work that would otherwise be taken seriously.

Perhaps it wouldn't matter if this weren't about an Oxbridge application, but we're talking about two of the best universities in the world here. A mistake this basic on an application form or test sounds out the signal that this applicant hasn't bothered to learn the basics of the language they're writing in. Yes, teaching helps, but there comes a point where one has to stop being passive about these things - if you don't understand something, you don't wait for someone to tell you the answer, you go look it up yourself.

crayons

" apostrohphe's' " was a deliberately spelt that way, but for the sake of you grammer police who can't seem to catch that, it has been changed.

Can you change the 'e' in grammar too?

Reply 30

chronicles

yes, I was being ironic. Look above.

Yes, I also agree that people who skim-read are not doing themselves favours. However, that does not mean that these people do not read at all, which is what I was initally responding to.

Yeah, these essays are only amazing because they are typed up and automatically corrected by Microsoft. However, when it gets down to writing normal, everyday stuff, these very same people make loads of mistakes. So perhaps the person above who suggested that when people actually get down to submitting their essays, the work is flawless.

I agree with you that after a certain age, if one realizes that are unsure about such things, they ought to take responsibility for it themselves. What I'm saying is that teaching at a young age does help. I wasn't specific. my bad.

Reply 31

Lidka

crayons

yes, I was being ironic. Look above.

Just checking. Frankly, it's hard to tell.

Yes, I also agree that people who skim-read are not doing themselves favours. However, that does not mean that these people do not read at all, which is what I was initally responding to.

We evidently have different definitions of "reading". :p:

Yeah, these essays are only amazing because they are typed up and automatically corrected by Microsoft. However, when it gets down to writing normal, everyday stuff, these very same people make loads of mistakes. So perhaps the person above who suggested that when people actually get down to submitting their essays, the work is flawless.

Microsoft spell- and grammar- checker is unreliable, and no substitute for genuine linguistic knowledge. Their work won't be "flawless" in the exam hall, where it matters.

I agree with you that after a certain age, if one realizes that are unsure about such things, they ought to take responsibility for it themselves. What I'm saying is that teaching at a young age does help. I wasn't specific. my bad.

It does help. :smile:

I wish there were more of it here, but unfortunately it doesn't really exist in this country. All most UK students will be able to tell you of grammar is that a verb is a "doing word".

Reply 32

chronicles

groan. wth is up with me. it's approx 1am here. snore.

Anyway, nods. agree with whatever ye wrote in the last post. Well have fun policing, Miss/Mr Grammar. I think I'd better retire lest I start t'y'p'i'n'g kompleetely incorrekt stuffs lyke that.