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Are Muslims serving a scapegoat role? Watch

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    I'm somewhere between right and left on the issue of Muslims in the west, and prospectively entering the west.

    While I share the sensible right's idea that complete denial and censorship is pernicious, and dangerous when it comes to dealing with real problems, I also share the lefts concern over scapegoating. I see quite a lot of wish fulfillment going on.

    By this, I mean that I see people who have many problems for myriad reasons, in the countries of the west. Muslims are fulfilling a role of both something to look down upon and feel superior to, and a whole demographic to blame. I sometimes note this sense of almost pleasure in events or a wish for stuff to happen that justifies prejudice. This concerns me as we have seen the history of such things.

    There is a world of difference between opposing hard left denial and censorship, which is so dangerous, and just being heedlessly inflammatory and stupid about this, playing into the hands of those who want divisions, foremost amongst these ISIS. It isn't a game.

    As for the fact virtually all terrorists in the world are muslims just now, I don't think it justifies attitudes going around.

    It's no better than 'No Irish no Blacks'.

    It's no better than 'All Brexit voters are racists'..

    There are huge complexities involving foreign policy, the continuing Israel situation, the economic situation and education level of migrants and the lack of integration going on because of zealous immigration policy and attitudes of communities to this.

    I also think there's a lack of perspective about other religions, look at christian fundamentalists, the protestant catholic wars, and factors such as drug abuse, people on the fringes of society(many terrorist have been petty criminals and 'wasters') and general alienation. The US especially has enough pathological people murdering of any background.

    Yes I know we are talking time, but it is a blip on the world scale. I could point tho the great advanced past muslim civlizations when we were way behind.

    That said, I think in practical terms, we need to deal with it on it's current terms, and be cautious regarding immigration.

    But it's really this continual othering and wish fulfillment that is going on that's bothering me, it's like people want to make it true that all muslims are dangerous when it is a minority, they are needing something to put frustrations onto and look down upon, often in a ruthless world, and as per usual the target just isn't the right one, nor the most oppressive one. That's as old as the hills.

    I find often that what you expect of people is strongly correlated to outcomes, and that we are personally responsible if we continually try and reinforce barriers and don't deal with people on a basis of common humanity.

    As for the 'identity' stuff, it's not really me, I'm not christian and nor do I see a particular religion as having a 'right' to be ours, the christian religion is very new in world terms, and I could argue on the same basis of any of those opposed to change(pace of change is a different debate)that we are thus more 'authentically' a pagan nation.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    As for the fact virtually all terrorists in the world are muslims just now, I don't think it justifies attitudes going around.
    I really disagree with this fact. It's just because only muslims are called terrorists, a white person is almost never deemed a terrorist when they commit the same act as a brown person. There are several non muslim terrorists, i don't even think its a matter of 'the majority of terrorists are muslim', it's the just the majority of people we call terrorists are muslim.
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    No, I don't think so. Only mentally challenged people blame all Muslims for terrorist attacks, so it's not OK to use Muslims as a scapegoat.

    What is acceptable is scrutinising, blaming and criticising Islam and admitting that it has a huge part to play in inspiring and perpetuating terrorism and just generally very intolerant and backward attitudes and beliefs. This wouldn't be using Islam as a scapegoat because that would imply Islam is innocent of any of the criticism it gets, and that's clearly not the case.
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    (Original post by bex.anne)
    I really disagree with this fact. It's just because only muslims are called terrorists, a white person is almost never deemed a terrorist when they commit the same act as a brown person. There are several non muslim terrorists, i don't even think its a matter of 'the majority of terrorists are muslim', it's the just the majority of people we call terrorists are muslim.
    I can't really see that there are many other groups engaged in terrorism now, but I was going on to say that it was stupid and wrong to use this to condemn all muslims, it's like condemning all Irish for the IRA or all Brexit voters as racist(I can admit most racist probably voted Brexit-not all, as there are pro-Europeans who basically want to preserve racial 'purity')
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    A Nationalist, and former member of the British National Party, once told me that the fear of / obsession with Islam is diverting attention away from many important and serious, but far less trendy, issues.

    Britain and some European countries have been fighting domestic non-Islamic terrorism for decades but terrorism is a very new concept in the US. Before 9/11 (which nobody predicted) there were only a few isolated instances such as the Oklahoma City bombings by Timothy McVeigh. The result is that governments and security services in Britain and some European countries had much more experience and knowledge of terrorism than their American counterparts. Statistically more terrorist attacks in Europe in recent years have been committed by non-Muslims rather than Muslims. The IRA are the kings of violent terrorism in Britain - and still exist in one form or another.

    If you look at the situation closely enough then there are signs that the so called war on terror is actually a global extension of the Israel Palestine conflict.

    The media, and to a lesser extent the judiciary and the CPS, effectively decides who is and isn't a terrorist. They try hard to ensure that non-Muslims are labelled / convicted as carrying out offences other than terrorism whereas Muslims are labelled / convicted as terrorists.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    No, I don't think so. Only mentally challenged people blame all Muslims for terrorist attacks, so it's not OK to use Muslims as a scapegoat.
    Now if I said that I'd get destroyed on this forum. Muslims are perfectly capable of living in the west and holding down jobs, paying taxes and living our lives just the same as the next person. However a minority of maniacs hell bent on killing anyone who doesn't agree with them is causing us normies great problems.
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    (Original post by AishaGirl)
    Now if I said that I'd get destroyed on this forum. Muslims are perfectly capable of living in the west and holding down jobs, paying taxes and living our lives just the same as the next person. However a minority of maniacs hell bent on killing anyone who doesn't agree with them is causing us normies great problems.
    I wouldn't class 52% of Muslims in Britain wanting homosexuality to be illegal and 23% wanting Sharia law to be in place as a 'minority of maniacs'.
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    (Original post by .( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°).)
    I wouldn't class 52% of Muslims in Britain wanting homosexuality to be illegal and 23% wanting Sharia law to be in place as a 'minority of maniacs'.
    Homosexuality was illegal until very recently in Britain, via white christians.
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    (Original post by .( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°).)
    I wouldn't class 52% of Muslims in Britain wanting homosexuality to be illegal and 23% wanting Sharia law to be in place as a 'minority of maniacs'.
    I was referring to terrorist groups.

    People are allowed an opinion, I don't believe homosexuality should be legal, does that make me a maniac? Homosexuality is just something I disagree with.

    In 2013 40% of Christans in the UK were against homosexuality. 10% of atheists even are against it. It's not just Muslims that disagree with it.

    Wanting Sharia again is just a personal opinion and has no real bearing considering just 5% of the UK population are Muslim. You can't discriminate against people simply for what they believe, it's what they do that ultimately counts.

    Like those morons who tried to create Sharia only zones in the UK like wtf.. who the hell do they think they are to do that. I am totally against this force feeding which is illegal in the first place.
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    (Original post by AishaGirl)
    People are allowed an opinion, I don't believe homosexuality should be legal, does that make me a maniac? Homosexuality is just something I disagree with.
    Everyone is allowed an opinion, but, in the West at least, everyone else is free to challenge it. You don't need to put your ideas into actions for someone to criticise you for them.

    Why do you 'disagree' with homosexuality? Indeed, if it's a naturally occurring mechanism, what makes it different from 'disagreeing' with someone for having another involuntary characteristic, such as their gender, race or an birth disability?
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Homosexuality was illegal until very recently in Britain, via white christians.
    Yes, that's the whole point... Britian has changed, it's a more Liberal society - same sex marriage is legal in the UK and just 5% of non-muslims in Britain believe homosexuality should be illegal compared to 52% of muslims in Britain. And people who follow Islam do not have these same views - In modern day there are only 10 countries were homosexuality is punished by death; these are all majority muslim nations.
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    (Original post by JohnGreek)
    Everyone is allowed an opinion, but, in the West at least, everyone else is free to challenge it. You don't need to put your ideas into actions for someone to criticise you for them.

    Why do you 'disagree' with homosexuality? Indeed, if it's a naturally occurring mechanism, what makes it different from 'disagreeing' with someone for having another involuntary characteristic, such as their gender, race or an birth disability?
    I'm not going into details about why I disagree with it, I just don't agree with it.

    You're right, my beliefs should be challenged but it's only fair if you also allow us to challenge your beliefs. You may disagree with something I agree with and I may disagree with something you agree with and we both might agree and disagree on some of the same issues.

    It's all about allowing people to have their beliefs, so long as they don't start trying to take the law into their own hands and implement Sharia to people then it's all good.
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    (Original post by AishaGirl)
    In 2013 40% of Christans in the UK were against homosexuality. 10% of atheists even are against it. It's not just Muslims that disagree with it.
    .
    Can you link your source for this as i found that 5% of non-muslims in Britain thought homosexuality should be illegal.
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    (Original post by .( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°).)
    Can you link your source for this as i found that 5% of non-muslims in Britain thought homosexuality should be illegal.
    http://www.brin.ac.uk/figures/attitu...ds-gay-rights/ (fixed the link)

    Specifically

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    (Original post by .( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°).)
    Can you link your source for this as i found that 5% of non-muslims in Britain thought homosexuality should be illegal.
    I don't know what source you are using but there is one very important fact a lot of people don't consider. If you go up to someone in the street and ask them if they support gay relationships. They will probably say yes, because there is a stigma or peer pressure associated with not being "accepting of all people".

    But behind closed doors where they can vote in privacy, peoples true opinions are let loose. It's the same reason why every public survey voted Hilary as the clear winner yet when it's time to vote in the privacy of booths, Trump won. Because finally people can say what they truly believe without fear of being ridiculed or hated on.

    Just wanted to throw that bit in
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    My own view on this is that there are a hell of a lot more radicalised Muslims outside the UK than inside the UK and I would like to keep it that way. Even the Muslim communities in the UK feel that a lot of the migrant Muslims would simply not fit into the UK and may cause trouble which would then have a negative effect on the peaceful Muslims already in the UK.
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    (Original post by .( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°).)
    Yes, that's the whole point... Britian has changed, it's a more Liberal society - same sex marriage is legal in the UK and just 5% of non-muslims in Britain believe homosexuality should be illegal compared to 52% of muslims in Britain. And people who follow Islam do not have these same views - In modern day there are only 10 countries were homosexuality is punished by death; these are all majority muslim nations.
    Yes but it's also the point that in a blip of time on the world scale..we thought like that- equally muslims living in the west can change very quickly, if they are not 'othered' and we don't play into the hands of ISIS and the like by othering people and continually emphasising some pre-ordained 'difference', which acts as a self-fulfilling prophecy and which in reality is much rarer than conservatives think.
    I'm not advocating mass immigration, not dealing with full face veil, and fundamentalists, but the other divisiveness can be just downright gratuitous and an anathema to the integration we know is possible.

    That said self-righteousness over mass immigration, and smears towards those who question it, is another aspect of neo-liberalism I despise, especially as it is only for cynical corporate interests and elite 'divide and rule' tactics.

    The hard left and right on these issues have been both a big problem. When you combine them both it's potentially disastrous.
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    (Original post by AishaGirl)
    http://www.brin.ac.uk/figures/attitu...ds-gay-rights/ (fixed the link)

    Specifically

    Yes, this does not surprise me, i do not agree with Christianity either or most religions for that matter which i have looked into. However, followers of Islam tend to have much more radical views on these topics i.e 52% wanting homosexuality to be illegal, and just 18% agreeing that it should be legal compared to those stats of 35% of Anglicans and 20% of Catholics simply thinking it is simply 'wrong' which is not as drastic as thinking it should be illegal.
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    (Original post by AishaGirl)
    I was referring to terrorist groups.

    People are allowed an opinion, I don't believe homosexuality should be legal, does that make me a maniac? Homosexuality is just something I disagree with.

    In 2013 40% of Christans in the UK were against homosexuality. 10% of atheists even are against it. It's not just Muslims that disagree with it.

    Wanting Sharia again is just a personal opinion and has no real bearing considering just 5% of the UK population are Muslim. You can't discriminate against people simply for what they believe, it's what they do that ultimately counts.

    Like those morons who tried to create Sharia only zones in the UK like wtf.. who the hell do they think they are to do that. I am totally against this force feeding which is illegal in the first place.
    Those Western liberal values that allow you to practice your religion are the same as those that allow two men to walk down the street holding hands.

    So it really disappoints me that the more regressive Muslims respond to such freedoms by wanting to see people like myself criminalised.
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    (Original post by .( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°).)
    Yes, this does not surprise me, i do not agree with Christianity either or most religions for that matter which i have looked into. However, followers of Islam tend to have much more radical views on these topics i.e 52% wanting homosexuality to be illegal, and just 18% agreeing that it should be legal compared to those stats of 35% of Anglicans and 20% of Catholics simply thinking it is simply 'wrong' which is not as drastic as thinking it should be illegal.
    Apples and oranges though... You seem to forget that same sex marriage was banned in the UK up until 2014 lol.

    My original point is most Muslims fundamentally do not support homosexuality and I don't see why that is an issue, we simply have a difference of opinion on this matter. Now should Muslims go around throwing gays off rooftops? No obviously not and anyone who did that should be sentenced for that crime.

    Having a belief is so radically different from actually taking the law into your own hands to enforce that belief. That's what terrorists do and the overwhelming majority of Muslims do not support this.
 
 
 
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