The Student Room Group

How to do a C4 Vectors exam question

Scroll to see replies

Original post by notnek
Look at part f) of the question In the second post of this thread. And a longer method is given below it that can be used if you don't know the angle.

If you have a different question that you are struggling with then please post it here.

Thank you! I tried using the method you attached but ngl, diagrams confuse me - and if I draw my own in the exam which would be messy then I would be even more confused :/ ty anyway tho. I understand that I have to use the dot product but but I was confused about what to use with the dot product along with the position vectors of the point given.
Original post by RDKGames
Yes. In principle, the shortest distance between a line and a point is the perpendicular distance from the point to the line. If you can express the vector from the point to the line in its general form, then dot it with the direction of the line, and make this product equal 0 (due to perpendicularity), you should be able to find the parameter on the line where the shortest distance is achieved, thus have a specific vector from the point to the line. Then shortest distance is the magnitude of this vector.


Original post by Philip-flop
I would highly recommend watching the video I've linked below (you may have to copy and paste the link into your web browser as my phone won't let me do it properly)

http://www.examsolutions.net/tutorials/shortest-distance-of-a-point-to-a-line/?level=A-Level&board=Edexcel&module=C4&topic=1567

Tysm!
So I'm stuck on part d of the Edexcel C4 January 2008 Paper (Question 6).

Can someone tell me how the vector equation of line l2 l_2 was found? I don't understand :frown:

Edexcel C4 January 2008 Question 6.png
Reply 62
Original post by Philip-flop
So I'm stuck on part d of the Edexcel C4 January 2008 Paper (Question 6).

Can someone tell me how the vector equation of line l2 l_2 was found? I don't understand :frown:

Edexcel C4 January 2008 Question 6.png

You are given the direction vector (a vector parallel to the line) and a point that the line passes through so you can form an equation of the line.

This is standard stuff that I think you know how to do...?
(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by notnek
You are given the direction vector (a vector parallel to the line) and a point that the line passes through so you can form an equation of the line.

This is standard stuff that I think you know how to do...?


Yeah I understand how to find the direction vector part. But how is the first part given by r=(000)+μ... r = \begin{pmatrix} 0\\ 0\\0 \end{pmatrix} + \mu...

Cos normally the first part is given by a position vector (a known point on a line) followed by the direction/displacement vector.

Or in this case do we see the origin (000) \begin{pmatrix} 0\\ 0\\0 \end{pmatrix} as being the position vector for the line l2 l_2 and the (101) \begin{pmatrix} 1\\ 0\\1 \end{pmatrix} as being the direction vector? Hence why r=(000)+μ(101) r = \begin{pmatrix} 0\\ 0\\0 \end{pmatrix} + \mu \begin{pmatrix} 1\\ 0\\1 \end{pmatrix} ?
Reply 64
Original post by Philip-flop
...

Yes you know that the origin lies on the line and the origin has position vector (000) \begin{pmatrix} 0\\ 0\\0 \end{pmatrix} so that is your a\mathbf{a} in the

r=a+λb\mathbf{r} = \mathbf{a} + \lambda \mathbf{b} formula.
Original post by notnek
Yes you know that the origin lies on the line and the origin has position vector (000) \begin{pmatrix} 0\\ 0\\0 \end{pmatrix} so that is your a\mathbf{a} in the

r=a+λb\mathbf{r} = \mathbf{a} + \lambda \mathbf{b} formula.


Thank you, I realise just how daft I was being now! :tongue:

I don't often come across questions where a line l l actually passes through the origin itself! Glad I re-attempted the Edexcel C4 Jan 2008 paper as there are some pretty decent questions in there towards the end. The differentiation used in context question at the end is particularly rather difficult but fun to understand.
Reply 66
Original post by Philip-flop
The differentiation used in context question at the end is particularly rather difficult but fun to understand.

Ah that question was nasty. Arguably the trickiest part that always catches students out is where students use kk in their working as the constant of proportionality but the kk in the question is different.

Also "water is leaking out of the whole at 400" - I think a lot of students would set dhdt=400\frac{dh}{dt}=400.

But I'm glad you found it fun :smile:
Original post by notnek
Ah that question was nasty. Arguably the trickiest part that always catches students out is where students use kk in their working as the constant of proportionality but the kk in the question is different.

Also "water is leaking out of the whole at 400" - I think a lot of students would set dhdt=400\frac{dh}{dt}=400.

But I'm glad you found it fun :smile:




Yeah I think they way I laid out my workings/doodles helped a lot!...
Photo 25-05-2017, 18 04 25.jpg

I had to think long and hard for parts a and b but then the rest of the question wasn't anything out of the ordinary. Obviously parts c, d ,e were difficult but I was definitely a lot more comfortable attempting those than the first two parts! :smile:


Anyway, I should probably stop talking about this question now since this is a thread about vectors :tongue:
Ok so I seem to be having trouble with the part (d) of question 6 of the Edexcel C4 June 2008 paper (here)

Edexcel C4 June 2008.png

Exam Solutions didn't really explain this part of the question very well so I'm hoping someone can clear this up for me :frown:

EDIT: Don't worry I checked the markscheme, it had a different way of solving it which I found much more easier to understand than what was explained on Exam Solutions :smile: :smile: :smile:
(edited 6 years ago)
Reply 69
Thanks for your help with vectors, @notnek :h:- ive just done the C4 exam and for once i could actually answer the whole question!

From hearing other peoples answers i think i got it right too :biggrin:
Is there a way of identifying whether the angle between two vectors (of unknown directions) give an acute angle?

Obviously I can spot from the answer given when using cosθ=a.bab cos \theta = \frac{a . b}{ |a| |b|} that if θ>90 \theta > 90^{\circ} then it is clearly an obtuse angle. But is there an indication of whether it will be acute or obtuse beforehand?

Or should I just get used to using the mod version to always give me the acute angle?aka...
Unparseable latex formula:

\displaysize cos \theta = | \frac{a . b}{ |a| |b|} |

Reply 71
Original post by Philip-flop
Is there a way of identifying whether the angle between two vectors (of unknown directions) give an acute angle?

Obviously I can spot from the answer given when using cosθ=a.bab cos \theta = \frac{a . b}{ |a| |b|} that if θ>90 \theta > 90^{\circ} then it is clearly an obtuse angle. But is there an indication of whether it will be acute or obtuse beforehand?

Or should I just get used to using the mod version to always give me the acute angle?aka...
Unparseable latex formula:

\displaysize cos \theta = | \frac{a . b}{ |a| |b|} |


Assuming a\mathbf{a} and b\mathbf{b} are pointing towards/away from each other:

θ\theta is obtuse implies that cosθ\cos \theta is negative which implies that the numerator of abab\frac{\mathbf{a}\cdot \mathbf{b}}{ |\mathbf{a}| |\mathbf{b}|} must be negative (since the denominator is always positive).

So the angle between a\mathbf{a} and b\mathbf{b} is obtuse when ab\mathbf{a}\cdot \mathbf{b} is negative. I don't know why you would need to check this though in a standard exam question.

You could try and imagine the vectors in 3D space (can be hard) but again I don't see the point in this and it will waste time.

I've never found the modulus formula that useful. You may as well just find what the actual angle between two vectors pointing towards/away from each other is and show this on your diagram. And if they ask for the acute angle between the two vectors and yours is obtuse then they must be looking for the other angle between the two vectors so you just subtract from 180.
Original post by notnek
Assuming a\mathbf{a} and b\mathbf{b} are pointing towards/away from each other:

θ\theta is obtuse implies that cosθ\cos \theta is negative which implies that the numerator of abab\frac{\mathbf{a}\cdot \mathbf{b}}{ |\mathbf{a}| |\mathbf{b}|} must be negative (since the denominator is always positive).

So the angle between a\mathbf{a} and b\mathbf{b} is obtuse when ab\mathbf{a}\cdot \mathbf{b} is negative. I don't know why you would need to check this though in a standard exam question.

You could try and imagine the vectors in 3D space (can be hard) but again I don't see the point in this and it will waste time.

I've never found the modulus formula that useful. You may as well just find what the actual angle between two vectors pointing towards/away from each other is and show this on your diagram. And if they ask for the acute angle between the two vectors and yours is obtuse then they must be looking for the other angle between the two vectors so you just subtract from 180.


Thank you!

Yeah that's true, I've never really needed to check to see whether θ \theta will give an acute or obtuse angle beforehand but I guess I was just curious. Like you said if it's found that θ>90 \theta > 90^{\circ} then it is clear that is the obtuse angle, but to find the acute angle I just have to take the obtuse angle away from 180 so 180θ 180 - \theta

I guess all this was mainly out of curiosity as I haven't really had any problems with the method I've been following in the past. I tried using the modulus formula properly for the first time just to see how it compares to the other. I managed to get the same/correct acute angle but I couldn't why it always gives the acute angle. You saying that when the numerator of a.bab \frac{a . b}{|a||b|} is negative it means that θ \theta is an obtuse angle makes sense to me now because when cosθ cos \theta is -ve it appears in the 2nd and 3rd quadrant of a CAST diagram (but obviously only the 2nd quadrant applies since together the acute and obtuse angle must add up to 180 degrees). So when cosθ cos \theta is negative it shows that the angle θ \theta is actually obtuse.
(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by notnek
The shortest distance from A to OB is the length of the line that starts from A and meets OB at a right-angle. If you draw a diagram then you should see that you've formed a right-angled triangle where you have one of the angles in the triangle (well you have the cosine of that angle) and you can work out one of the lengths in the triangle then you can use SOHCAHTOA to find the shortest distance,

I've explained a very similar question here that you might find useful (part f).


Question though - For the area of the parallelogram (part e), why cant you do |AB| * |AD|
Reply 74
Original post by Super199
Question though - For the area of the parallelogram (part e), why cant you do |AB| * |AD|

The area of a parallelogram is base x perpendicular height. Multiplying two of the adjacent lengths won't work since they're not perpendicular.
Original post by notnek
The area of a parallelogram is base x perpendicular height. Multiplying two of the adjacent lengths won't work since they're not perpendicular.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKRDtUsvBuA

So this is wrong?
Reply 76

That's the vector product of two vectors which is a further maths topic.

You wrote |AB| * |AD|

which I assumed meant the product of the magnitudes of AB and AD.
Original post by notnek
That's the vector product of two vectors which is a further maths topic.

You wrote |AB| * |AD|

which I assumed meant the product of the magnitudes of AB and AD.


But if you do the magnitude of AB and AD it gives the same value in the case of the video.

But anyway - What is the best way to work out the area of the parallelogram? (C4 wise) - The way you did it? Using the area of the triangle * 2, with the angle ?
Reply 78
Original post by Super199
But if you do the magnitude of AB and AD it gives the same value in the case of the video.

But anyway - What is the best way to work out the area of the parallelogram? (C4 wise) - The way you did it? Using the area of the triangle * 2, with the angle ?

I don't think it does give the same value. You're saying you get 3663\sqrt{66} if you multiply the two magnitudes?

It depends on the question - in this question I had one of the angles in the parallelogram so the quickest way is to find the area of the triangles, otherwise I'd have had to find the perpendicular height which would require some extra trig.
Ok so these types of vector questions seem to confuse me a little bit (see question below).

Let me get this straight...
So we call P(x, y, z)

We are told that "P lies on l" therefore we can say that OP=l \vec{OP} = l therefore (xyz)=(102λ2+λ3+λ)\begin{pmatrix}x \\ y \\ z\end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix}10-2\lambda \\ 2+\lambda \\ 3+\lambda\end{pmatrix}

which is another way of saying that the point P lies somewhere on the line l.

But then how do we find the scalar parameter λ \lambda ?

Why do we use the Dot Product? I only know to use it because it mentions that CP \vec{CP} and AB \vec{AB} are perpendicular in the question.

What is meant by CPAB=02x+y+z=9 \vec{CP} \cdot \vec{AB} = 0 \Rightarrow -2x+y+z = 9 is this another equation of the point P? Is that why we sub...

(xyz)=(102λ2+λ3+λ)\begin{pmatrix}x \\ y \\ z\end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix}10-2\lambda \\ 2+\lambda \\ 3+\lambda\end{pmatrix}

...into the equation 2x+y+z=9 -2x+y+z = 9 ???

and then obviously solve for the parameter λ \lambda

This really needs clearing up for me :frown:

Edexcel C4 Jan 2012 Question 8 (part c)
C4 June 2012 Q8 Vectors.jpg
(edited 6 years ago)

Quick Reply

Latest