Islam, The Left, and Cognitive Dissonance

But most have parents who came here without any kind of "selection". So it makes sense to ask for better control to protect future generations.

Issues with Islam really arise with their lack of any kind of central leadership structure. Anybody who does the 5 pillars is classed as a Muslim of some sort, and then from then on they're basically able to do whatever the **** they want with regards to interpreting everything in the Quran and Hadith as there's no pope equivalent telling them they're right or wrong.

Of course terrorist Muslims are in a minority, but without some sort of big reform in the religion these kinds of terrorists can just keep popping up as all you need is a combination of psychopathy and a bit of literalist interpretation of the suras that are full of bad stuff. To stop it, Muslims would either need to all get on the same page and have the same interpretation of stuff (with said intrepretation being a more liberal one), or somehow wind up with a kind of "new Muhammad" who can say stuff that all Muslims have to follow, and then have him spout liberal stuff. Both are unlikely, and the latter in particular is basically impossible given that you're not supposed to alter the Quran.

The "left" (bit of a vague term really) seem to do an excellent job of ignoring all this, and make a jump that goes sort of like "The Muslims I know of are cool therefore all other Muslims aren't true Muslims" which isn't really the truth. Meanwhile the far-right's solution appears to be errr... another crusade? I mean banning the immigration wouldn't help anything long term so it'd have to snowball into blowing people up for them to keep face. Not ideal.

Personally, I'm not optimistic for a proper solution to any issues to be found unless conversations like this thread's come into the mainstream. As it is, the mainstream debates on Islam basically go along the lines of somebody's slightly racist uncle going "all Muslims are terrorists" followed by banal accusations of Islamaphobia against him with no actual interesting or useful development.

Whaaaat?! I never said any Western country is an Islamic theocracy....

As you say, the far right often completely overlooks the fact that most terrorists are radicalised domestically and hold British passports. The culprit for this however is both the right and the left in this country (slightly more so the left) - they have both been peddling the multiculturalism is great mantra - when it evidently has led and will lead to the ghettoization of communities and a failure in assimilation.

Terrorism and radicalism will always exist. There really is no way to put an end to it. What we can do is find ways to limit the threat. For example, the government should invest more in the police force instead of doing cut after cut to public services. Stricter checks on immigration will be useful as well.

All I see is a link to 'religion of peace', the most biased,

uncredible, unreliable,

hate mongering, website out there. Lol.

He's evidently not here to debate or discuss. He has an agenda and has smeared two people already for things they haven't even espoused.

The Qur'an is certainly open to interpretation which is exactly why some believe to kill apostates and others don't.

To state there isn't because the Qur'an is the word of God is a non-sequitur.

But this is a good thing. "Reformation" can be done in the form of accepting less violent ideas like not punishing apostasy.

and who is to undertake siad reformation- the very weakness in the islamic system is its reliance on its all-knowing ( and now extinct) prohet mohammed, who was also convienently the last of all the islamic prophets.

the only true reformation that can be undertaken is by some brave soul to step up and say 'guess what everyone im next in line to mohammed afterall' - not likely seeing as even the followers of the last guy to do that from what is modern day pakistan, are being killed off by the wider muslim population

Well, excuse me for being emotional. But that happens if you have to explain the same thing after every terror attack.

It certainly has an agenda but then, who doesn't?

I have read through a few pages, followed the links and checked the references against the sources I use (Quran, sunnah and classical tafsir), and they all seem pretty factually accurate.
Whenever it says "the Quran says x" or "Bukhari says y", they actually do say what they claim.

It certainly has no love of Islam, but read this and then tell me it is "hate mongering".
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/site/about-muslims.aspx

I still don't use is as a reference during discussions simply because of reactions like yours. I just find it easier to stick to the original source material. It says the same thing.

They take quran verses out of context and give an interpretation which is obscure.

They take quran verses out of context and give an interpretation which is obscure. In addition to this, the translation from arabic to english has been found to be incorrect to suit their agenda MANY times, several words having been placed into qoutes, and the order of them changed. They even got caught when they literally fabricated a verse of the Tabari (they made up a qoute), and had to take it down.

It is unreliable. Theyre not real quran verses when half of them are incorrect translation or taken out of context, such as the verses about murder, which were in the context of war, that they just extract to make all the naive readers think they mean every muslim should kill every non muslim they encounter. Which is not true when other verses say respect all people and be friends with non muslims - the prophet muhammed was friends with his jewish business partner.

So essentially, you are saying that TROP has an agenda and it favours arguments and interpretations and selectively uses sources that support that agenda.

I agree. And the same can be said for every pro-Islam website.
Which is why I avoid both and stick to the source material - specifically corpus.quran, sunnah.com and alim.org, along with the books by Ibn Ishaq, Mubarakpuri and Lings

However, as I have said, none of the Quran or hadith quotes I have looked at on there differ from how they appear on corpus.quran or sunnah.com.
Your claim that they are "not real Quran verses" is completely and demonstrably untrue, as is your accusation that it claims that Islam instructs "every Muslims to kill every non-Muslim they encounter".
You claim that it only highlights the violent verses while ignoring the peaceful ones but fail to mention that all the pro-Islam sites do exactly the same (but the other way round).
TROP does not claim to present a balanced overview of Islam, it clearly states that its purpose is to "counter the whitewashing" of Islam by the kind of sources that you favour, but it also goes out of its way to reiterate the difference between criticising Islam and discriminating against Muslims and clearly states that while the former is essential, the latter is completely unacceptable.
However, it is not as exclusive as you claim. This is an extract from its "What to do" page.
1) Do NOT hurt Muslims. Westerners generally don’t have a problem with this, having shown remarkable restraint in the wake of horrendous terror attacks. Bottom line: You don’t know any terrorists. The Muslims that you know in your private life are not terrorists. Don’t harm them or protect anyone who does.

2) Do NOT hate or harass Muslims. The Muslims that you know personally are probably not much different than you are. They have the same concerns for their children’s future and the same interests in getting ahead in life. They do not deserve to be harassed on account of a religion that they may not understand very well or take all that seriously.

3) Do NOT vandalize the property of Muslims Same reasons; Grow up.

4) Do NOT publicly abuse copies of the Quran. It doesn’t accomplish anything other than giving radicals another reason to play the victim, get angry, and perhaps hurt someone. It’s also juvenile and offensive.

If you want to confront Islam, then you must be truthful and objective, rather than rude and slanderous. Don’t exaggerate or use absolutes. Don’t say that all Muslims are bad people (they aren't), or that everything about Islam is bad.
So it is clear that your accusations are actually groundless.

(Could you provide a reference to them deliberately fabricating a verse. Thanks)

But most have parents who came here without any kind of "selection". So it makes sense to ask for better control to protect future generations.

They have taken it down.

My accusations arent groundless, I stand by them.

Regardless of the fact that they put this disclaimer of some sort telling people not to abuse muslims in their life after reading this page, people still will. I've come accross this website before, but never stumbled on this page. Lets be honest, after reading so much negativity, someone who isnt educated, will have a hatred towards everyone who is muslim/ looks muslim in their life and end up attacking them (and yes, it does happen before you try to deny it does, take for example 90% of the members of the EDL). The fact that they are Saying 'don't pubicly abuse muslims, its juvenile and offensive' here is rather ironic, isnt it, because thats exactly what they're doing? Theyre inticing hatred towards a group of people and they full well know that it will cause people to retaliate

and most of the killers lead pretty decadent western lives, drink booze, party etc.

Your "proper" Muslims are less likely to actually commit any acts of terrorism. This isn't left wing propaganda, it comes our of organisations like MI6.

"proper" Muslims are less likely to actually commit any acts of terrorism

Yet Muslim terror attacks are an everyday occurrence in many Muslim countries!

We must presume that many Muslims in Muslim majority countries are in fact not "proper" Muslims!

Fascinating.

Maybe we should be sending our non-Muslim Muslim experts over to these countries to show them how to become "proper" Muslims.

I put "proper" in speech quotes for a reason you dingbat.

Conservative Muslims then... the Muslims that don't drink booze.

I'm talking about who is more likely to go on acts of rampage in European countries.