Does anyone else feel greater affection for the commonwealth than Europe? Watch

SaucissonSecCy
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Now, I know in the vision of many Euro fanatics, this is ghastly, but I can't help but feel some instinctive level of distrust for continental Europe, a feeling that by the abstract vagaries of Geography, we are apt for a distinct destiny.

This is after all, the continent that appeased and colluded en masse with the greatest evil in human history, human beings dignity, lives and hopes taken away from them in the most sick manner as they were dying in dreadful ways, their bodies simply farmed industrially into soap and fertilizer.

This is going to be even more embarrassing/disgusting(or whatever words hardlines remainers like to use) but I actually feel tarnished that we gave up so much of our independence to join in after such a superior history.

The commonwealth are countries where we were somewhat in the wrong-although it is more complex as we did much good.

But anyhow I feel there are sensibilities in the anglosphere and commonwealth I just feel more aligned to. Not that those countries are perfect. Sometime intuition is worthwhile- I'm no little Englander, I just instinctively feel more trust and affection for those links than European ones. I also feel they are more based on values and not race, where as swathes of Europeans see identity as racial and monolithic.

The word parochial is thrown around, but is it legitimate in the country with more mixed race marriages and kids than anywhere, and up until mass immigration, better integration than anywhere(it's still relatively better in the old communities
- but has been threatened continually by moronic neo-liberal EU zealots)


Isn't it simply a case of 'open mindedness' being defined as towards Europe?
Is it that simple? Is it possible we are more narrow minded to Europe but open to the world and have seen so much of the globe, which European nations haven't, that we don't want the European identity as well, that many treasure the commonwealth over it, including Blacks and Asian British people?


I'm really not convinced the least ethno-nationalist nation in Europe that stood alone against fascism and the Nazis, with the highest rates of mixed race marriage and children, the first to abolish slavery, should be taking so many moral lectures on open mindedness.

In Germany , Boris Becker having a relationship with a black woman was like a scandal recently, catholic southern and eastern Europe is rife with provincial racism, and total arrogance and ignorance regarding Asia, which is far more successful and productive, not to mention interesting in terms of spirituality and culture.

There is European parochialism, and also people just forget how much of the world the UK has on it's doorstep, and quietly, unshowily tolerant British are, along with a sensible pragmatic moderation, and a wish to preserve what's unique about us. So we are not virtue signalling and making a pompous, pretentious big deal of how open minded and global we are- that is because it's a cultrual trait to down play ourselves and not be grandiose.

Lots of English people are thus more complex than given credit for and we feel that to try and incorporate the commonwealth, multiracial plus British identity(sometimes two culture identities)is enough and the limit of variation plus a common thread.. so why impose another layer of government and identity on top of that that is diluting us, and controlling us, making us less tolerant not more.

Face it- we made the right decision.

Like I say, the gut is right at times, and when I, as proud of a country with a complex, racially diverse British identity witness the following, my instincts tell me the future I want-

Polish person who's been here a few months to Black Caribbean British person, with generations history here.
'**** off back to Africa, this is Europe'

All parts of that hit me deep.

The entitlement mentality- 'this is instantly ours, just another patch of white christian European monoculture' -do as told, you are us now

The stifling prescriptive and authoritarian nature of Eurocrats- 'conform, this is ours, this is our identity'- we were losing our iconoclasm and balls becoming a cowed bunch of browbeaten conformists.

The lack of understanding of British complexity and identity transcending ethnicity, the divergent history and future needs.

It seemed to encapsulate everything being sold as 'opening us up', that was in fact limiting us.

Britain is an enigma- it is remarkable and should not be undersold.

Many Europeans simply do not understand it.
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Manitude
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I don't personally. I feel as though I have a lot more in common culturally with someone from Ireland or France or Germany than I do with someone from Jamaica, India or Kenya.

Although I probably feel closer, culturally, to Kiwis, Australians and Canadians than I would to the three previously mentioned commonwealth countries as well as some Eastern European countries.
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SaucissonSecCy
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A lot of European nations are parochial, arrogant, catholic(not our cultural roots, yes I know catholics were monarchists but bollox to that), myopic, and just economically stagnant museums.

But intellectuals in this country continually make the mistake of overlooking European parochialism, underestimating Brits understated, unshowy openess, and romanticising the Europe 'over there'.

It's never explained why the English are flamed as little Englanders, with such rates of race mixing, not caring about our own food much(Indian national dish) only a real love of institutions and certain types of continuity...

Whilst -areas of France, Italy and Germany with nothing but the local culture for miles and miles and not a single ethnically different face, plus a complete obliviousness of their cultures, and a misplaced conceited superiority that Brits don't have (because we know Asians competitiveness and aptitude, can't afford to have because of our experience with them..the white man can't feel so unconditionally superior, and if he does it's only in Englishness, education, or whiteness...this is healthy.) are seen as this antidote to the narrowness- sorry what world are you living in?! There is more Chauvinism and obsession with everything local there than anywhere, and what's more, even though we took the fight to fascism and bigotry and murder when they didn't , we are the ones chastised continually.

Let's just end our tolerance of this BS, borne of post-colonial self-flagellation, and look forward.
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Davij038
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OP I will give this a more thorough analysis this evening. In the mean time:

This actually reads like quite an interesting and thoughtful analysis: though obviously I take exception to a few points, and it's spoiled some what by periodic outbursts of childish ad hominem that actually do your post a disservice.
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ByEeek
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Just out of curiosity, have you ever been to European countries or had any friends who came from the continent? Just curious.
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Davij038
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Firstly:I am Pro EU and also Pro Commonwealth and see no need to reject one in favour of the other: this has been the position of the government since Churchill; I feel a kinship with the Common wealth Nations as equally as I do with our European brethren. From a global perspective we are all Westerners- the by product of a web of hundreds of ideas originating from Antiquity and nurtured by the Enlightenment.

Historically I will agree that from a moralistic standpoint the Atlantic side has been, but not to such an extent as some such as Dan Hannan argue a greater force for good in general than those from the Continent.

However I would argue that this comes more from geography than cultural differences. Europe has been a continuous battlefield between competing states which the U.K. Has understandably and successfully fought to keep it that way. This has come at a high price and World War 2 almost destroyed Britain hence the creation of what would become the EU which was enthusiastically supported by the US whom the union was in some way inspired by: The United States of Europe!

All nations are Conservative by instinct: your painting of Europe is unfair and the same could easily be said of the UK and US : 'Make America great AGAIN' and 'Take BACK control' do harbour a nostalgic and dare I say it rose tinted view of the past that you accuse Europe of.

Which isn't a bad thing, I should add: we should be proud of our country's achievements. Where I would add a caveat in is that a generation of German's of which Merkel belongs have been prevented from able to take pride in their country for the reason you mentioned. Thankfully this mentality is dying out as the new generation have no relationship with Nazism that their elders do. This has been important of course as Germany is the most economically powerful country in the area.

I think you're being naive about our history of openness to other cultures- I would say we are no more open than any other Western European nation which is due to being former colonial powers (and needing cheap labour) rather than the UK crying out for diversity.

I would agree that progressives (or the intelligentsia) have had a tendency to look more towards Europe than to the US/ Commonwealth which can be explained by many reasons: some fair (violent race relations in the US and Australia /apartheid South Africa and of course that just like in the US a fair fraction were sympathetic to Communism which occupied half of Europe at the time. Additionally the US is far more capitalistic economically than the UK.
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Rakas21
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I don't give a rats about the Commonwealth as a whole however i do consider the developed Anglosphere to be our family (Australia, New Zealand, Canada).
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999tigger
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I think we have a lot in common with ANZ, less so Canada. Not really affection for the rest of the Commonwealth, although we do have a connection.
Not really much affection for the EU, except we have a lot in common with the western part at least. I quite admire the scandinavians.

Not something that keeps me awake at night. Maybe you need to have a little commonwealth shrine in your bedroom.
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SHallowvale
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(Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
Now, I know in the vision of many Euro fanatics, this is ghastly, but I can't help but feel some instinctive level of distrust for continental Europe, a feeling that by the abstract vagaries of Geography, we are apt for a distinct destiny.

This is after all, the continent that appeased and colluded en masse with the greatest evil in human history, human beings dignity, lives and hopes taken away from them in the most sick manner as they were dying in dreadful ways, their bodies simply farmed industrially into soap and fertilizer.

This is going to be even more embarrassing/disgusting(or whatever words hardlines remainers like to use) but I actually feel tarnished that we gave up so much of our independence to join in after such a superior history.

The commonwealth are countries where we were somewhat in the wrong-although it is more complex as we did much good.

But anyhow I feel there are sensibilities in the anglosphere and commonwealth I just feel more aligned to. Not that those countries are perfect. Sometime intuition is worthwhile- I'm no little Englander, I just instinctively feel more trust and affection for those links than European ones. I also feel they are more based on values and not race, where as swathes of Europeans see identity as racial and monolithic.

The word parochial is thrown around, but is it legitimate in the country with more mixed race marriages and kids than anywhere, and up until mass immigration, better integration than anywhere(it's still relatively better in the old communities
- but has been threatened continually by moronic neo-liberal EU zealots)


Isn't it simply a case of 'open mindedness' being defined as towards Europe?
Is it that simple? Is it possible we are more narrow minded to Europe but open to the world and have seen so much of the globe, which European nations haven't, that we don't want the European identity as well, that many treasure the commonwealth over it, including Blacks and Asian British people?


I'm really not convinced the least ethno-nationalist nation in Europe that stood alone against fascism and the Nazis, with the highest rates of mixed race marriage and children, the first to abolish slavery, should be taking so many moral lectures on open mindedness.

In Germany , Boris Becker having a relationship with a black woman was like a scandal recently, catholic southern and eastern Europe is rife with provincial racism, and total arrogance and ignorance regarding Asia, which is far more successful and productive, not to mention interesting in terms of spirituality and culture.

There is European parochialism, and also people just forget how much of the world the UK has on it's doorstep, and quietly, unshowily tolerant British are, along with a sensible pragmatic moderation, and a wish to preserve what's unique about us. So we are not virtue signalling and making a pompous, pretentious big deal of how open minded and global we are- that is because it's a cultrual trait to down play ourselves and not be grandiose.

Lots of English people are thus more complex than given credit for and we feel that to try and incorporate the commonwealth, multiracial plus British identity(sometimes two culture identities)is enough and the limit of variation plus a common thread.. so why impose another layer of government and identity on top of that that is diluting us, and controlling us, making us less tolerant not more.

Face it- we made the right decision.

Like I say, the gut is right at times, and when I, as proud of a country with a complex, racially diverse British identity witness the following, my instincts tell me the future I want-

Polish person who's been here a few months to Black Caribbean British person, with generations history here.
'**** off back to Africa, this is Europe'

All parts of that hit me deep.

The entitlement mentality- 'this is instantly ours, just another patch of white christian European monoculture' -do as told, you are us now

The stifling prescriptive and authoritarian nature of Eurocrats- 'conform, this is ours, this is our identity'- we were losing our iconoclasm and balls becoming a cowed bunch of browbeaten conformists.

The lack of understanding of British complexity and identity transcending ethnicity, the divergent history and future needs.

It seemed to encapsulate everything being sold as 'opening us up', that was in fact limiting us.

Britain is an enigma- it is remarkable and should not be undersold.

Many Europeans simply do not understand it.
I have far greater affinity for Europe as I talk with Europeans on a daily basis.

In a political/economic sense I prefer Europe, or perhaps the EU, also.
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ChaoticButterfly
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(Original post by Davij038)
the by product of a web of hundreds of ideas originating from Antiquity and nurtured by the Enlightenment.
and guns, don't forget guns
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