I dont understand the hate against 'gender'...

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Summers12
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Please note. I have nothing against absolutely any person or their own choices what so ever. I respect myself entirely as a young straight woman and am open to others opinions.

But.. I really don't get all the moaning about gender and not giving your children gender orientated toys clothes etc.
I don't even know it is allowed to say that I consider myself to be quite 'girly' and 'feminine'?! I loved being a girly girl through my teens but now its almost as if its slated to allow myself that as 'boys can be girly too..etc'
Maybe I'm naïve to a world I just don't understand! Which is why I want to be educated! What's your thoughts??
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kas9
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(Original post by Summers12)
Please note. I have nothing against absolutely any person or their own choices what so ever. I respect myself entirely as a young straight woman and am open to others opinions.

But.. I really don't get all the moaning about gender and not giving your children gender orientated toys clothes etc.
I don't even know it is allowed to say that I consider myself to be quite 'girly' and 'feminine'?! I loved being a girly girl through my teens but now its almost as if its slated to allow myself that as 'boys can be girly too..etc'
Maybe I'm naïve to a world I just don't understand! Which is why I want to be educated! What's your thoughts??
I do see what you mean when you talk about people considering themselves as "girly" or things alike. I think western feminism has brought with it the sense of strong independence, and being girly seems to be something distasteful. However i do think that some people enjoy being a certain type of person, for example i know for a fact many women enjoy being a housewife, something quite often slated.

It is really strange and it will be interesting to see how changes come about in the future.
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Sammylou40
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(Original post by kas9)
I do see what you mean when you talk about people considering themselves as "girly" or things alike. I think western feminism has brought with it the sense of strong independence, and being girly seems to be something distasteful. However i do think that some people enjoy being a certain type of person, for example i know for a fact many women enjoy being a housewife, something quite often slated.

It is really strange and it will be interesting to see how changes come about in the future.
I agree.
Be as girly as you want and proud of it
There is no excuse to slate someone who prefers to identify with anything considered traditional or "old fashioned "
I should have been a housewife in the fifties!!!
Being happy with and bloody good at what you do is nothing to be ashamed of
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username1921011
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I think the principle of allowing children to choose without forcing preconceptions on them is the idea behind it - albeit a short sighted one.

The issue is primarily that because of this 'counter culture' so to speak, the norm (as in that which already exists) is demonised to try and pave the way for the 'new culture' but in doing creates stupid partisanship such as statements like seeing a girl in a dress 'enforces gender norms and is oppressive' or literally the 'you're either with us or our enemy' five year old clique logic that circulates among those at the further ends of the spectrum ie extreme progressives/conservatives.

It doesn't recognize firstly, girls and boys do have differences in brain structure (indeed this is the underpinning for the legitimacy of transgender as a genuine deep personal issue) which is observable even from birth by the toys they pick and innate behaviour. This leads to a 'gender norm' as that brain pattern behaves in a certain way. There is no issue with this. If a child does not associate with the item in question they'll let you know - a 'tomboy' child of a family friend would scream at the thought of being put in a dress basically from birth, it just didn't 'feel right' to them and this certainly wasn't an opinion enforced by society as tomboys are not particularly prevalent. People cannot help their inherent brain structure and it does give them certain dispositions for example women are more happy to be at home due to the evolutionary instinct, and men are more aggressive and have a higher percentage of muscle due to same. Men and women store fat differently for evolutionary reasons - to ignore the fundamentals that make up our species is mad.

It's important to allow people to be outside these norms, but forcing them even as a way of 'counter culture' is not the solution. For example if - without prompting - my theoretical son wanted a barbie I'd allow them to have it. I'd let them bring it home and then warn them of the potential social consequences for their own wellbeing ie don't be ashamed but for an easy life enjoy it more privately unless you want to defend it against other people's views in which case I'll help you do that. It wouldn't bother me he wanted a barbie - it's just a long haired action man. Kids go through stages in finding out who they are - better to let them unless they pose risk to themselves or others by doing so. Forcing them to behave, or not to behave, in a certain way just produces ill adjusted kids when it's against their very identity. It's not the same as stopping them breaking rules, that's boundaries, telling them they can't be who they are is awful.

I have enough faith that if a child sees a male doctor on TV they won't then say 'I'm female so I can't be a doctor', especially not when they're older. My go to example is if men are represented as fat, dumb and lazy on TV ie homer simpson, peter griffin, nobody watching that says 'well I'd better not bother trying as hard as I can in my exams because I'm clearly dumb as well'. That doesn't make sense on any level. Even if they do think they're dumb they'll still try hard on their exams and life experience will give them their opinion ie if they were straight A's since birth then they won't think they're dumb. If they can't hack education, they'll think they're dumb - or more likely blame the system and become wayward because nobody likes being told they're stupid. Point being this whole 'I saw a thing once on TV and it told me who I have to be' is nonsense. Most of TV is designed to cater TO its audience ie they find out what people want to see and put it in there which is why lynx advertises as 'unlock your inner greatness and get all these chicks' whereas Maybelline advertises as 'you're worth it'. They appeal to the thought pattern of their demographic, they don't define it.
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_gcx
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(Original post by GonvilleBromhead)
I think the principle of allowing children to choose without forcing preconceptions on them is the idea behind it - albeit a short sighted one.

The issue is primarily that because of this 'counter culture' so to speak, the norm (as in that which already exists) is demonised to try and pave the way for the 'new culture' but in doing creates stupid partisanship such as statements like seeing a girl in a dress 'enforces gender norms and is oppressive' or literally the 'you're either with us or our enemy' five year old clique logic that circulates among those at the further ends of the spectrum ie extreme progressives/conservatives.

It doesn't recognize firstly, girls and boys do have differences in brain structure (indeed this is the underpinning for the legitimacy of transgender as a genuine deep personal issue) which is observable even from birth by the toys they pick and innate behaviour. This leads to a 'gender norm' as that brain pattern behaves in a certain way. There is no issue with this. If a child does not associate with the item in question they'll let you know - a 'tomboy' child of a family friend would scream at the thought of being put in a dress basically from birth, it just didn't 'feel right' to them and this certainly wasn't an opinion enforced by society as tomboys are not particularly prevalent. People cannot help their inherent brain structure and it does give them certain dispositions for example women are more happy to be at home due to the evolutionary instinct, and men are more aggressive and have a higher percentage of muscle due to same. Men and women store fat differently for evolutionary reasons - to ignore the fundamentals that make up our species is mad.

It's important to allow people to be outside these norms, but forcing them even as a way of 'counter culture' is not the solution. For example if - without prompting - my theoretical son wanted a barbie I'd allow them to have it. I'd let them bring it home and then warn them of the potential social consequences for their own wellbeing ie don't be ashamed but for an easy life enjoy it more privately unless you want to defend it against other people's views in which case I'll help you do that. It wouldn't bother me he wanted a barbie - it's just a long haired action man. Kids go through stages in finding out who they are - better to let them unless they pose risk to themselves or others by doing so. Forcing them to behave, or not to behave, in a certain way just produces ill adjusted kids when it's against their very identity. It's not the same as stopping them breaking rules, that's boundaries, telling them they can't be who they are is awful.

I have enough faith that if a child sees a male doctor on TV they won't then say 'I'm female so I can't be a doctor', especially not when they're older. My go to example is if men are represented as fat, dumb and lazy on TV ie homer simpson, peter griffin, nobody watching that says 'well I'd better not bother trying as hard as I can in my exams because I'm clearly dumb as well'. That doesn't make sense on any level. Even if they do think they're dumb they'll still try hard on their exams and life experience will give them their opinion ie if they were straight A's since birth then they won't think they're dumb. If they can't hack education, they'll think they're dumb - or more likely blame the system and become wayward because nobody likes being told they're stupid. Point being this whole 'I saw a thing once on TV and it told me who I have to be' is nonsense. Most of TV is designed to cater TO its audience ie they find out what people want to see and put it in there which is why lynx advertises as 'unlock your inner greatness and get all these chicks' whereas Maybelline advertises as 'you're worth it'. They appeal to the thought pattern of their demographic, they don't define it.
Couldn't agree with this statement more;
I have enough faith that if a child sees a male doctor on TV they won't then say 'I'm female so I can't be a doctor'
If one is defeated by this, then they clearly lack the motivation to become a doctor either, nor, dare I say, the academic versatility.
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geographyuk123
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgiLm9bCxrU
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littlebitofsky
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Gender is a social construction based partly, but not entirely, on your sex assigned at birth (aka what's between your legs when you're born). It's basically how the society you live in thinks is appropriate for men and women to behave. (source: World Health Organisation: http://www.who.int/gender-equity-rig...definition/en/)

The main problem with "gender" as a construct is that it assumes all people born with penises feel one way and all people born with vaginas feel another way. As the WHO also notes, gender norms can lead to inequality if they reinforce a) mistreatment of one group or b) differences in power or opportunities. So this is why some people (myself included) believe that gender isn't as important as we seem to think it is in our society. Because who's to say that just because I have a vagina I should act or feel a certain way? If we start to think less about gender and more about individuals, I think we're gonna see happier people and more freedom to authentically be whoever we want.

But that being said, if you feel girly and feminine then that's fab! Like I said, the point is that regardless of your sex assigned at birth you should be able to feel and act however you want. Sometimes I feel really feminine and other times... not so much. I still consider myself a woman though, because that's just how I feel I am.

Basically no-one should be stopping you from being girly - yes, boys can feel "feminine" too and they should be able to express that, but it doesn't detract from you and how you feel. I hope that all makes a little sense? It's definitely worth reading a bit around gender (from a queer, feminist POV as well as more objective viewpoints) because it's super interesting!
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